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Vinyl Asylum Welcome Licorice Pizza (LP) lovers! Setup guides and Vinyl FAQ. |
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In Reply to: Matsushita created a special products group which went on to create the SP turntables and SP-02 lathe motor. posted by tubesforever on April 27, 2011 at 00:21:31:
As to the JVC connection, this seems to be a pet theory of more than a few people, including IIRC, Axel at www.thevintageknob.org.
But...
Denon's first DD motor was the DN-302F (broadcast console) from 1970. In 1971, they had shrunk that to the size of the UFO shape we know and love, and released the DP-5000 for what was then super big bucks. This was the start of the 'over-the-counter' business of pro-like tables (the business model of the consoles was multi-year service contracts attached). Both the DP-5000 and DP-3000 of '72 had the magnetic coating on the rim which set the timing (this is often said to be Sony technology, and I repeated it in my post above, but I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that Denon might not see it that way). The 5000 and subsequent Denon DD tables of the 70s were AC 2-phase servo motors. The 'light platter' was based on trying to reduce load to reduce speed stabilization time for semi-pro use (the DN-302 had a big motor which got up to 33.3 in 0.2 seconds. The 5000 was effectively a miniaturization of the DN-302F (but they got speed stabilization down to less than a second) and the 3000 was a slight toning down of the 5000.
JVC's first DD motors (the T77 and B44) were I think a year or two later, and were slotted DC motors - totally different motor technology.
Denon put quartz-lock into the line-up with the DP-7000 of 1976, followed by the DP-6000 of the same year. That was also when Denon started getting tweaky with its platter mat composition and looking very deeply into platter resonance (which is one of the claims to fame of the later DP-80). So by 1976 we have basically all the parts in place to get to the DP80 of 1978, except the DP-80 was a 3-phase AC servo motor, had the double-layer platter tweak, and the servo motor was bi-directional.
I think the TT-81 and TT-101 motors came out in 1976 just before the DP-7000. Given the time difference (a couple of months at best), I expect the quartz lock was informed by someone else, but the TT-81 may have informed Denon's move to bi-directional servos of the DP-80 two years later. The quartz-lock, light platter, and special mat tricks were already up Denon's sleeves. I am not sure who came out with quartz-lock first (I know Sony had it in 1975 with their "Crystal-Lock"). Also keeping the Victor and Denon tech separated was the fact that the Victor TT-81 and TT-101 were coreless DC motors, not AC motors like the Denons.
The Sonys also had the magnetic rim pulse technology sometime in the first half of the 70s, which reportedly came from their own subsidiary called Sony Magnescale (mfr of data recorders). This may be where the idea came that Denon got the technology from Sony. I don't know, but I may stick with the idea that Denon will also defend ownership of the idea from their own resources.
As to SP being involved, as far as I know, Denon did not use slotted motor technology (as the SP-10 did) on any of its 'high-end' (DP-5000 and afterwards) DD motors whereas Technics did, and JVC's original T77 and B44 DD motors were slotted, as were the QL-5 and -7 series tables of the late 70s. JVC went coreless with its TT-81, but the concept is different than Denon's.
As to the Matsushita parts, it is not unnatural that they should be there. Matsushita was one of the basic manufacturers of electrolytics/etc at the time. It would be unnatural if there were no Matsushita parts in there - that doesn't have much to do with any purported design linkage (kind of like suggesting Pirelli has been central to the design of Ferraris). I bet many mfrs had tables with Matsushita electrical components inside.
Given the way Japanese companies compete, it would surprise me greatly if SP had been heavily involved in the development of the Denon tables. Denon's best technology went straight to the broadcast tables, and then trickled down. Those broadcast tables, as noted before, were effectively technology JVs between Denon, Nippon Columbia, and NHK. From everything I have come across, the original purpose of the Technics SP-10 was to make inroads into the broadcast market that Denon had somewhat sewn up from years before with big platter idlers and then the belt drive DP-101 from the late 1960s, and then the DP-5000. The DP-7000 was basically a DP-5000 with quartz-lock. The DP-6000 was a comedown from the 7000. The DP-80 was truly new motor tech.
If I had to say where the Denon tables came from, I would say that the magnetic strip probably came from an NHK/NipponColumbia effort on the DN-302, where they may have 'taken' the idea for the technology from data recorders in the computer industry. I think the low-torque light platter concept came from the obvious - coreless motors just won't create the torque as easily as cored slotted motors (like the SP10) so light platters are necessary to get up to speed. I expect the Victor's bi-directional servo was an idea which helped Denon on the DP80 and later tables, but they may have needed it with the move to a 3-phase motor in any case. I expect the Matsushita parts are probably present in a wide variety of tables of the time (including Victor's tables, Sony's, and possibly others). If anything, I bet Denon got a LOT of interesting ideas from NHK engineers.
But that's just one guy's ideas from knowing a few of the relationships and reading between the lines...
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Follow Ups
- Thanks for the color... I remain skeptical that Denon got significant design help from other mfrs... - travisty 04/27/1105:21:53 04/27/11 (0)
- RE: Thanks for the color... I remain skeptical that Denon got significant design help from other mfrs... - caligari 17:16:15 04/28/11 (0)
- Thanks! - travisty 00:28:51 04/29/11 (0)
- RE: Thanks! - caligari 12:27:38 04/29/11 (0)
- Thanks again. There ARE lots of ways to skin a cat. - travisty 14:51:14 04/29/11 (0)
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