In Reply to: RE: Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. posted by Analog Scott on June 17, 2008 at 15:05:25:
AS
"with no calibration how do you know any particular ABX DBT is sensitive to any or all actual audible differences between the two components being tested? What does a null mean in an ABX DBT where no one has established that the reference system/setup or the subjects are sensitive to subtle or even not so subtle real world audible differences?"
Of course, without calibration, as you put it, one does not know how sensitive the audition is. That wasn't hard to answer. Neither is the second question. The null shows that one was not able to establish that one could detect a difference between whatever is being auditioned, under the conditions of the test. We just don't know in technical terms what the differences are. Richard has explained this over and over. I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that. You seem to expect something more.
But then, a sighted audition does not establish that one can hear a difference, since one already knows what one is listening to. You don't even need to listen to get the answers right.
Under the same conditions, a blind test could at least establish that one actually can detect a difference. However, without measurements and calibration, one doesn't really know what the difference amounts to. Whether that is required depends on the purpose of the audition.
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"It pertains to all men to know themselves and to be temperate."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
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Follow Ups
- RE: Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. - Pat D 06/17/0817:02:25 06/17/08 (43)
- logical fallacy #19 - Analog Scott 00:06:37 06/18/08 (27)
- Logic can be a wonderful thing . . . - Pat D 17:00:07 06/18/08 (26)
- "but not misapplied logic. I have not used a tu quoque argument." - Analog Scott 17:23:40 06/18/08 (25)
- A comparison is not a tu quoque. - Pat D 02:44:16 06/19/08 (24)
- RE: A comparison is not a tu quoque. - morricab 01:54:37 06/20/08 (1)
- RE: A comparison is not a tu quoque. - robert young 05:41:30 06/20/08 (0)
- Null DBTs are not very interesting - Tony Lauck 20:32:02 06/19/08 (10)
- Where are the "null results" in sighted non-SPL matched comparisons? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:23:27 06/25/08 (1)
- RE: Where are the "null results" in sighted non-SPL matched comparisons? - Tony Lauck 08:38:44 06/25/08 (0)
- Great post! - kerr 05:40:51 06/20/08 (7)
- Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Pat D 16:14:57 06/20/08 (6)
- RE: Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Tony Lauck 18:10:41 06/20/08 (2)
- RE: Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Pat D 20:02:52 06/20/08 (1)
- RE: Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Tony Lauck 17:53:18 06/21/08 (0)
- " Or didn't you read what jj has said on this?" This is getting pathetic. - robert young 16:28:46 06/20/08 (2)
- The Leventhal AES article on this is a must-read - andy_c 17:57:01 06/20/08 (1)
- RE: The Leventhal AES article on this is a must-read - Pat D 18:17:55 06/23/08 (0)
- Put your arrogance aside for just a moment. - robert young 03:52:25 06/19/08 (10)
- No, it is arrogant to ignore the evidence. (nt) - Pat D 18:41:48 06/19/08 (9)
- And that is exactly what you have been doing. - robert young 19:16:45 06/19/08 (8)
- Yet another self-declared winner. - Pat D 06:09:37 06/21/08 (7)
- I didn't realize this was a sporting event. - robert young 07:33:32 06/21/08 (6)
- "Game over" is your expression. So now you're taking your marbles and going home? - Pat D 07:56:25 06/21/08 (5)
- You don't seem to have understood my position. - robert young 08:01:40 06/21/08 (4)
- Your position doesn't concern me, only your arguments. (nt) - Pat D 17:12:33 06/21/08 (3)
- That was your biggest cop-out yet. - robert young 17:26:29 06/21/08 (2)
- Anyone can take a position. It's the justification that interests me. - Pat D 19:24:20 06/21/08 (1)
- I explained why. If you don't like the reasons, that's not going to affect me one way or the other. - robert young 06:19:57 06/22/08 (0)
- Pat, it isn't whether sighted is better or worse, its about... - robert young 18:42:57 06/17/08 (14)
- "Non-calibrated" describes the typical out-of-control sighted audition - Richard BassNut Greene 14:40:41 06/18/08 (3)
- Yes, I do dislike sighted tests... - robert young 16:17:18 06/18/08 (2)
- "I make no claims of superiority of either the system or my ears." - Richard BassNut Greene 09:19:59 06/19/08 (1)
- "Those audiophiles who have tested their ears comparing interconnects would not worry..." - robert young 09:33:35 06/19/08 (0)
- No, you still haven't got it. - Pat D 19:21:36 06/17/08 (9)
- Yes I do, but I'm convinced you don't. - robert young 13:39:59 06/18/08 (0)
- RE: No, you still haven't got it. - bjh 20:30:07 06/17/08 (7)
- RE: No, you still haven't got it. - Pat D 17:20:20 06/18/08 (6)
- "Richard isn't the only one." You mean those others (like Richard) have dreamt - bjh 19:55:17 06/18/08 (0)
- I would say logical fallacy #3 again but... - Analog Scott 17:27:46 06/18/08 (4)
- I would say argumentem ad hominem. (nt) - Pat D 17:38:14 06/18/08 (3)
- That would be an odd thing to say given there was no argument - Analog Scott 17:44:46 06/18/08 (2)
- Nonsense. - Pat D 02:49:35 06/19/08 (1)
- You have correctly - E-Stat 10:16:39 06/21/08 (0)