A long standing issue I have in the audio world is the lack of correlation between what people observe when listening vs. what the measurements suggest they should hear.
With loudspeakers, one can get a reasonable picture from the measurements because they vary so wildly from speaker to speaker. Things like on and off-axis frequency response, cabinet (or frame) resonance, panel or driver resonance and/or breakup, harmonic and non-harmonic distortions (like port noise or panel buzz) all add up to give a discernable character. The measurements won't necessarily tell you if you will LIKE the outcome but they will give you at least some idea where the troubles for a given speaker could be. There is at least some correlation between good sound and good measurements for speakers.
Electronics; however, are another matter. The standard measurements: THD+noise, IMD, Frequency response, S/N ratio, etc. don't tell you much at all what to expect sonically. Now during the 1960s and 70s there were the THD wars where lower and lower was considered the ideal (to some extent this never went away...look at Halcro for the latest extremely low THD example). The end result; however, was bad sound...really bad sound. Then some clever guys like Matti Otala thought there was a better correlation with transient intermodulation distortion or TIM and to some extent this was true but the outcome of some amps designed around the low TIM philosophy??? Again not appreciably better sound. Now the hardcore objectivists were screaming "Hey the distortion is so low that it is impossible to hear it...it must be your imagination if you think one amp sounds different than another". But hear it we do, so the quest goes on.
Now Otala also came up with another paper that showed that distortion can occur in an amp with a high global negative feedback from the back EMF of the loudspeaker. Essentially, the return of signal from the speaker back into the output stage and thus the feedback loop of the amplifier would give a distortion signal back to the input of the amp that woudl then be reamplified. Now this signal was small and would not contribute significantly to the THD level but it would be completely non-harmonic and therefore potentially quite audible. Still, pieces of the puzzle are missing.
Now jump ahead 20 years and what do we see as the trend, less negative feedback in many cases or none at all, simpler topologies with emphasis on linearity at each stage...things like this. Why? Well it turns out that THD and IMD are HORRIBLE predictors of sound quality. In fact, Earl Geddes has found that there is even a slight NEGATIVE correlation with THD, meaning a higher THD amp might sound better in fact. This then begs the question, is it THD that is really important then? The answer is no! BTW, if you look further below a link posted by AndyC also found another paper, which found the same thing as Geddes regarding THD and IMD. Their metric is perhaps more generally applicable but still non-trivial to implement with real amplifiers.
I have now read three interesting papers where a metric is attempted to correlate listening results with an empirically derived equation. The first was Cheever and he basically found that if one takes into account the masking effect of the human hearing then it lends itself to a model in which the HARMONICS of the distortion pattern are weighted to account for the lack of masking at high order harmonic distortion. He is dealing with the measured output of the amplification device but not the steady state harmonics the dynamically produced harmonics. It turns out that HOW an amplifier is designed has a profound effect on its behavior in this regard.
More recently Dr. Earl Geddes has come up with his Gedlee metric. This metric uses the transfer function of an amplifier to generate this Gedlee factor. Sharp discontinuities in the transfer function result in higher G values and these correlate with listening tests. The higher the value of G, the worse the sound. They were able to achieve a correlation coefficient of > 0.9. The difficulty is of course using this in practice and getting the transfer function of a piece of electronics. The links to the papers are here: http://www.gedlee.com/distortion_perception.htm
Read Distortion perception I and II
Now I have found another interesting site with sound files based on amplifier models:
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Amplifier_distortion.htm
This guys test and modeling is VERY interesting as well and he has found the following:
"For these initial tests a pure 440 Hz sine wave is input to the amplifier model, and the THD of the output signal is computed.
The distortion of a pure tone is quite audible at a THD level of 0.5% for the SS model. There are nine harmonics in the range of -50 to -60 dB, and it is the higher harmonics that are the most audible For the SE model distortion is only audible at a THD of 10%, where the 1st harmonic is 20 dB below the fundamental! "
So 10% vs 0.5% THD the 0.5% should be inaudible and the 10% clearly audible, right? Wrong! The non-linearity of hearing sees to it that that simple numbers like this don't tell all.
"I have posted pure tone distortion wav files with 0.5% distortion for the SS model, and 5% for the SE model. I can't hear the distortion in the SE file even though it is 10 times higher than the SS model.
"
"The listening test results quoted here were obtained using Army's double-blind tester"
"For a jazz selection, with a value of alpha equal to 0.5, I was 100% accurate in selecting between the reference and distorted files for the SS and PP models. I could not reliably distinguish the distorted SE file, and I could not reliably distinguish between the SS and PP models"
"I was 100% accurate in selecting the SE file as less distorted than the SS file."
"Referring to the previous figure, this value of alpha corresponds to a sine wave THD of about 5%, 0.2%, and 0%, for the SE, PP, and SS models respectively. So if the output powers were really equal, a SE design that would be rated at 5% THD sounds better than a SS rated at 0% THD!
"
Apparently the less stressed an amplifier is the better as well:
Suppose the SS amp puts out 4 times the power as the SE tube amp. If you make the output volumes equal, the alpha value for the SE amp is twice as large as for the SS amp. Compared to a SS with alpha = 0.4, the SE amp with alpha = 0.8 sounds much worse. A SS with alpha = 0.2 compared to a SE with alpha = 0.4 is also better, but the difference is less dramatic. So in this situation the advantage of higher SS power outweighs the advantage of less discordant SE distortion products"
Cheever's thesis:
http://www.next-tube.com/articles.php?article=articles/Cheever/abstract_en.inc&sub_menu_item=99
Just some food for thought regarding what people think they know about electronic distortion and what is really known.
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Topic - Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 09:53:13 06/17/08 (170)
- For 150 clams.. - gymwear5@hotmail.com 14:07:33 06/24/08 (0)
- Play the Sheffield record/CD..... - Awe-d-o-file 15:47:38 06/18/08 (1)
- RE: Play the Sheffield record/CD..... - Todd Krieger 02:06:41 06/19/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - rick_m 12:14:30 06/17/08 (42)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - andy_c 12:42:21 06/17/08 (41)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 00:39:40 06/18/08 (27)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - Ugly 11:25:44 06/18/08 (23)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 15:42:23 06/18/08 (22)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - rick_m 06:22:48 06/19/08 (21)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 11:29:34 06/19/08 (4)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - rick_m 12:22:27 06/19/08 (3)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 01:39:25 06/20/08 (1)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - rick_m 06:19:20 06/20/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 01:35:39 06/20/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - AJinFLA 09:37:01 06/19/08 (7)
- I'm there... - rick_m 11:40:38 06/19/08 (2)
- RE: I'm there... - AJinFLA 03:36:53 06/20/08 (1)
- It was a local bunch... - rick_m 07:33:02 06/20/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 11:33:58 06/19/08 (2)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - AJinFLA 17:08:04 06/19/08 (1)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 01:40:57 06/20/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 11:33:23 06/19/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - andy_c 08:53:03 06/19/08 (7)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 11:31:08 06/19/08 (4)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - andy_c 11:48:32 06/19/08 (3)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 01:49:25 06/20/08 (2)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - andy_c 07:18:17 06/20/08 (1)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 07:35:59 06/20/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - rick_m 11:11:47 06/19/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - AJinFLA 09:26:53 06/19/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - andy_c 08:19:58 06/18/08 (0)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - rick_m 06:46:04 06/18/08 (1)
- RE: Distortion and Audibility...replay. - morricab 08:25:52 06/18/08 (0)
- So, the big discovery = tubeamps sound better than xistor amps in clipping? Stop the presses! - Ugly 15:26:00 06/17/08 (12)
- Of course it's possible a much higher power solid state amp would never clip at all? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:46:04 06/18/08 (9)
- I am convinced that is what is already happenning. - Ugly 11:14:11 06/18/08 (8)
- RE: I am convinced that is what is already happenning. - morricab 16:26:01 06/18/08 (7)
- RE: I am convinced that is what is already happenning. - Ugly 01:00:14 06/19/08 (6)
- RE: I am convinced that is what is already happenning. - morricab 02:16:43 06/19/08 (5)
- RE: I am convinced that is what is already happenning. - theaudiohobby 08:56:46 06/20/08 (4)
- RE: I am convinced that is what is already happenning. - morricab 01:33:04 06/21/08 (2)
- RE: I am convinced that is what is already happenning. - theaudiohobby 13:16:38 06/21/08 (1)
- RE: I am convinced that is what is already happenning. - morricab 04:35:58 06/22/08 (0)
- If speakers were measured in fluid ounces we might have some data (nt) - AJinFLA 10:08:51 06/20/08 (0)
- That seems to be the gist of it (nt) - andy_c 15:36:11 06/17/08 (1)
- 'Tis indeed. - rick_m 16:59:25 06/17/08 (0)
- Much said about "audibility" is beliefs rather than facts - Richard BassNut Greene 10:07:38 06/17/08 (123)
- Round and around we go, where we stop nobody knows. nt - Norm 18:03:29 06/17/08 (0)
- RE: Much said about "audibility" is beliefs rather than facts - morricab 14:59:22 06/17/08 (11)
- Incredible how much you talk about audio and how little you know about audio - Richard BassNut Greene 08:34:10 06/18/08 (10)
- RE: Incredible how much you talk about audio and how little you know about audio - morricab 16:13:04 06/18/08 (9)
- Every "point" of yours calmly refuted with one hand tied behind my back (read Monday = avoid ruining weekend) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:13:34 06/20/08 (4)
- RE: Every "point" of yours calmly refuted with one hand tied behind my back (read Monday = avoid ruining weeke - morricab 02:19:32 06/21/08 (3)
- You say: "Sometimes not at first but with time they all (amplifiers) sound different. Same with preamplifiers" - Richard BassNut Greene 08:33:12 06/23/08 (2)
- RE: You say: "Sometimes not at first but with time they all (amplifiers) sound different. Same with preamplifiers" - morricab 06:44:54 06/24/08 (0)
- RE: You say: "Sometimes not at first but with time they all (amplifiers) sound different. Same with preamplifiers" - morricab 06:41:04 06/24/08 (0)
- Your silence is deafening, RBNG - morricab 01:59:36 06/20/08 (2)
- It takes a day for me to recover from reading one of your posts - Richard BassNut Greene 08:27:38 06/20/08 (1)
- RE: It takes a day for me to recover from reading one of your posts - morricab 01:51:33 06/21/08 (0)
- Wow! Bingo! You have done what I have been too lazy to do--having the studies at hand. nt - Norm 08:57:28 06/19/08 (0)
- Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. - robert young 11:29:55 06/17/08 (109)
- You can and should say the same thing about uncontrolled subjective comparisons - Richard BassNut Greene 08:59:30 06/18/08 (30)
- The problems with bias in sighted tests are obvious. - robert young 13:20:55 06/18/08 (26)
- SBT's are useful too - Richard BassNut Greene 14:04:38 06/18/08 (25)
- You continue to ignore the glaring problem of "T." - robert young 14:17:47 06/18/08 (24)
- You remind me of a guy who claims to have a 200 IQ but refuses an IQ test because they make him nervous - Richard BassNut Greene 14:30:16 06/18/08 (23)
- You Remind Me Of A Guy Who Makes Up Stories To Support His Beliefs - thetubeguy1954 19:31:48 06/18/08 (21)
- You claim exceptional hearing skills and sometimes claim to do tests but you never test your claims - Richard BassNut Greene 08:55:27 06/19/08 (20)
- Neither do you - E-Stat 07:25:23 06/20/08 (4)
- What are you challenging me to some kind of hearing test using headphones? - Richard BassNut Greene 13:56:47 06/20/08 (3)
- Finally you answer - E-Stat 14:18:31 06/20/08 (2)
- I gave your brain time to rest, but alas, you're confused, as usual - Richard BassNut Greene 14:57:29 06/20/08 (1)
- Simple questions for you - E-Stat 15:08:15 06/20/08 (0)
- And You Say The Same BS Over & Over - thetubeguy1954 13:41:22 06/19/08 (14)
- Your so-called tests were a joke - Richard BassNut Greene 13:59:46 06/20/08 (0)
- The lesson that you and others should learn - bjh 14:08:44 06/19/08 (12)
- Extended character attacks NEVER refute points I make in posts - Richard BassNut Greene 14:01:21 06/20/08 (0)
- BJH --- I Agree Completely With Your Post - thetubeguy1954 06:42:21 06/20/08 (2)
- "we should all choose to simply ignore Richard BassNut Greene, AJinFLA & Pat D" - Richard BassNut Greene 14:06:24 06/20/08 (1)
- You were doing so well.... - robert young 16:44:46 06/20/08 (0)
- Gosh, you're right!! - robert young 15:12:33 06/19/08 (7)
- You forgot to say ... - Richard BassNut Greene 09:25:43 06/20/08 (2)
- RE: You forgot to say ... - morricab 02:25:25 06/21/08 (0)
- But I don't know that.... - robert young 09:50:33 06/20/08 (0)
- I'm sorry Robert but - bjh 17:23:37 06/19/08 (3)
- Okey-dokey. - robert young 19:19:20 06/19/08 (2)
- I'm starting a petition to bring back Roaring Poser and Teresa ....... & anyone else needed for more fun ? - Richard BassNut Greene 14:16:25 06/20/08 (1)
- Thanks for the laugh.... - robert young 15:08:45 06/20/08 (0)
- That would be funny, if.... - robert young 14:39:01 06/18/08 (0)
- OR... you can create a fantasy in your head about 30 years of - bjh 10:41:07 06/18/08 (1)
- The true fantasyland is "everything sounds different" as no one can EVER demonstrate that skill to witnesses . - Richard BassNut Greene 14:09:05 06/18/08 (0)
- another logical fallacy #19. nt - Analog Scott 09:14:43 06/18/08 (0)
- An ABX DBT can be calibrated for sensitivity to differences - Analog Scott 15:00:17 06/17/08 (4)
- Nulls are not meaningless, Mr. Brainiac - Richard BassNut Greene 09:09:30 06/18/08 (3)
- Nice strawman. never said they were meaningless. - Analog Scott 09:22:58 06/18/08 (2)
- I assume an "uncalibrated test" is any test whose results don't match your beliefs? - Richard BassNut Greene 14:13:50 06/18/08 (1)
- well, it is like you to make a dumb ass assumption - Analog Scott 15:27:11 06/18/08 (0)
- RE: Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. - Pat D 14:05:13 06/17/08 (72)
- RE: Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. - Analog Scott 15:05:25 06/17/08 (47)
- The test is a way to check claims made during sighted uncontrolled comparisons - Richard BassNut Greene 14:22:44 06/18/08 (2)
- Did you even read my post? - Analog Scott 15:54:59 06/18/08 (1)
- You mean your convoluted "logic" where a system is only good enough for a test if you like the test results? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:05:55 06/19/08 (0)
- RE: Gee, Richard, maybe those tests are simply not appropriate. - Pat D 17:02:25 06/17/08 (43)
- logical fallacy #19 - Analog Scott 00:06:37 06/18/08 (27)
- Logic can be a wonderful thing . . . - Pat D 17:00:07 06/18/08 (26)
- "but not misapplied logic. I have not used a tu quoque argument." - Analog Scott 17:23:40 06/18/08 (25)
- A comparison is not a tu quoque. - Pat D 02:44:16 06/19/08 (24)
- RE: A comparison is not a tu quoque. - morricab 01:54:37 06/20/08 (1)
- RE: A comparison is not a tu quoque. - robert young 05:41:30 06/20/08 (0)
- Null DBTs are not very interesting - Tony Lauck 20:32:02 06/19/08 (10)
- Where are the "null results" in sighted non-SPL matched comparisons? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:23:27 06/25/08 (1)
- RE: Where are the "null results" in sighted non-SPL matched comparisons? - Tony Lauck 08:38:44 06/25/08 (0)
- Great post! - kerr 05:40:51 06/20/08 (7)
- Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Pat D 16:14:57 06/20/08 (6)
- RE: Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Tony Lauck 18:10:41 06/20/08 (2)
- RE: Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Pat D 20:02:52 06/20/08 (1)
- RE: Actually, you're both wrong about this. - Tony Lauck 17:53:18 06/21/08 (0)
- " Or didn't you read what jj has said on this?" This is getting pathetic. - robert young 16:28:46 06/20/08 (2)
- The Leventhal AES article on this is a must-read - andy_c 17:57:01 06/20/08 (1)
- RE: The Leventhal AES article on this is a must-read - Pat D 18:17:55 06/23/08 (0)
- Put your arrogance aside for just a moment. - robert young 03:52:25 06/19/08 (10)
- No, it is arrogant to ignore the evidence. (nt) - Pat D 18:41:48 06/19/08 (9)
- And that is exactly what you have been doing. - robert young 19:16:45 06/19/08 (8)
- Yet another self-declared winner. - Pat D 06:09:37 06/21/08 (7)
- I didn't realize this was a sporting event. - robert young 07:33:32 06/21/08 (6)
- "Game over" is your expression. So now you're taking your marbles and going home? - Pat D 07:56:25 06/21/08 (5)
- You don't seem to have understood my position. - robert young 08:01:40 06/21/08 (4)
- Your position doesn't concern me, only your arguments. (nt) - Pat D 17:12:33 06/21/08 (3)
- That was your biggest cop-out yet. - robert young 17:26:29 06/21/08 (2)
- Anyone can take a position. It's the justification that interests me. - Pat D 19:24:20 06/21/08 (1)
- I explained why. If you don't like the reasons, that's not going to affect me one way or the other. - robert young 06:19:57 06/22/08 (0)
- Pat, it isn't whether sighted is better or worse, its about... - robert young 18:42:57 06/17/08 (14)
- "Non-calibrated" describes the typical out-of-control sighted audition - Richard BassNut Greene 14:40:41 06/18/08 (3)
- Yes, I do dislike sighted tests... - robert young 16:17:18 06/18/08 (2)
- "I make no claims of superiority of either the system or my ears." - Richard BassNut Greene 09:19:59 06/19/08 (1)
- "Those audiophiles who have tested their ears comparing interconnects would not worry..." - robert young 09:33:35 06/19/08 (0)
- No, you still haven't got it. - Pat D 19:21:36 06/17/08 (9)
- Yes I do, but I'm convinced you don't. - robert young 13:39:59 06/18/08 (0)
- RE: No, you still haven't got it. - bjh 20:30:07 06/17/08 (7)
- RE: No, you still haven't got it. - Pat D 17:20:20 06/18/08 (6)
- "Richard isn't the only one." You mean those others (like Richard) have dreamt - bjh 19:55:17 06/18/08 (0)
- I would say logical fallacy #3 again but... - Analog Scott 17:27:46 06/18/08 (4)
- I would say argumentem ad hominem. (nt) - Pat D 17:38:14 06/18/08 (3)
- That would be an odd thing to say given there was no argument - Analog Scott 17:44:46 06/18/08 (2)
- Nonsense. - Pat D 02:49:35 06/19/08 (1)
- You have correctly - E-Stat 10:16:39 06/21/08 (0)
- Of course calibration is required. - robert young 14:16:48 06/17/08 (23)
- It depends on the purpose of the audition. - Pat D 17:14:51 06/17/08 (22)
- Ah yes, another example of Fallacy # 3 - E-Stat 14:03:10 06/18/08 (0)
- Let's go back to basics. As you often chastise others for not doing. - robert young 18:47:55 06/17/08 (20)
- Yes, let's do get back to real life basics. - Pat D 20:03:32 06/17/08 (19)
- Yes, let's discuss authority. - robert young 14:05:35 06/18/08 (18)
- RE: Yes, let's discuss authority. - Pat D 17:34:02 06/18/08 (17)
- You are so far from getting this. - robert young 19:54:54 06/18/08 (16)
- Known Flaws In DBTS! - thetubeguy1954 08:39:56 06/19/08 (1)
- It seems we have taught you something . . . - Pat D 14:21:15 06/19/08 (0)
- You haven't come up with any reasons to doubt accepted scientific protocols. - Pat D 02:54:44 06/19/08 (13)
- Yes I have. - robert young 03:45:55 06/19/08 (12)
- Your arguments don't support your conclusion. - Pat D 14:40:37 06/19/08 (11)
- Sorry, but I do not accept your points. - robert young 15:08:02 06/19/08 (10)
- Just for your benefit... - bjh 17:42:49 06/19/08 (9)
- But do you benefit? - Pat D 18:02:29 06/19/08 (8)
- When I suggested that you research "forced choice," I didn't intend... - robert young 19:24:59 06/19/08 (6)
- I gave you the thread--you can search around it all you want. - Pat D 16:04:20 06/20/08 (1)
- I'm sad that you clearly can't give this more attention. - robert young 16:37:03 06/20/08 (0)
- JJ was just the sort to earn Pat D's adulation... - bjh 20:23:28 06/19/08 (3)
- I was around when he took his ball and left. - robert young 03:32:27 06/20/08 (2)
- I expect he had other things to do . . . - Pat D 05:57:06 06/21/08 (1)
- Though the point is irrelevant, you are right about it. - robert young 06:27:04 06/21/08 (0)
- RE: But do you benefit? - bjh 18:32:29 06/19/08 (0)