Rick what scientifically acceptable method should be used to demonstrate that audiophiles do indeed "hear it"?

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Topic - A Challenge To Measurements & DBT Proponents - thetubeguy1954 12:27:53 09/18/07 (199)

I hired an investigator to find out the truth about Tube Guy and it is absolutely shocking!!!!!!!! - Richard BassNut Greene 12:47:44 09/22/07 (3)

RE: I hired an investigator to find out the truth about Tube Guy and it is absolutely shocking!!!!!!!! - thetubeguy1954 13:49:02 09/25/07 (1)

That leash looks like the cable they use to catch jets on aircraft carrier decks - Richard BassNut Greene 07:54:06 09/26/07 (0)

Do You Have the Signed Contract?? - Todd Krieger 22:51:52 09/24/07 (0)

RE: A Challenge To Measurements & DBT Proponents - EBradMeyer 06:45:24 09/21/07 (36)

A pharmacist's perspective - E-Stat 09:16:57 09/22/07 (11)

RE: A pharmacist's perspective - EBradMeyer 11:46:26 09/25/07 (1)

You're welcome - E-Stat 13:31:29 09/25/07 (0)

Another pharmacist's perspective... - mkuller 11:10:14 09/22/07 (8)

RE: Another pharmacist's perspective... - Steve Eddy 13:04:54 09/22/07 (7)

Couple of issues occur to me. - Dave Pogue 06:19:50 09/23/07 (6)

RE: Couple of issues occur to me. - EBradMeyer 12:01:28 09/25/07 (3)

I hope your conclusions are sounder than your perception of who I am. - Dave Pogue 12:12:13 09/25/07 (2)

RE: I hope your conclusions are sounder than your perception of who I am. - EBradMeyer 12:30:49 09/25/07 (1)

Oh, it's sufficiently eminent. - Dave Pogue 12:55:10 09/25/07 (0)

RE: Couple of issues occur to me. - Steve Eddy 09:37:41 09/23/07 (0)

RE: Couple of issues occur to me. - Ted Smith 08:23:59 09/23/07 (0)

RE: A Challenge To Measurements & DBT Proponents - Todd Krieger 01:30:25 09/22/07 (14)

Agree and disagree - AJinFLA 09:01:45 09/22/07 (0)

Well-answered! If I may recast it a bit... - clarkjohnsen 08:56:05 09/22/07 (12)

RE: "unqualified test subjects" - tlyyra 03:59:33 09/23/07 (2)

Time to put a stop to the lies and the LIAR who tells them. - clarkjohnsen 12:09:14 09/23/07 (1)

Would hearing OMG improvement in a grinded/inked cd qualify someone? Eliminate them as a moron? (nt) - AJinFLA 17:00:23 09/23/07 (0)

Catch 22 - AJinFLA 09:13:11 09/22/07 (8)

Question - E-Stat 09:23:06 09/22/07 (7)

RE: Question - AJinFLA 09:34:48 09/23/07 (6)

Congratulations! - E-Stat 09:44:49 09/23/07 (5)

RE: Congratulations! - AJinFLA 12:21:06 09/23/07 (4)

Rick what scientifically acceptable method should be used to demonstrate that audiophiles do indeed "hear it"? - AJinFLA 09/24/0715:53:37 09/24/07 (1)

Only too happy to repeat the answer - E-Stat 09:23:15 09/26/07 (0)

Gotcha - E-Stat 06:15:19 09/24/07 (1)

Rick? - AJinFLA 08:46:09 09/26/07 (0)

RE: A Challenge To Measurements & DBT Proponents - Pat D 12:29:59 09/21/07 (4)

RE: That clears up a lot! - EBradMeyer 21:29:27 09/21/07 (3)

RE: That clears up a lot! - Steve Eddy 13:10:07 09/22/07 (1)

RE: That clears up a lot! - EBradMeyer 12:22:42 09/25/07 (0)

RE: That clears up a lot! - Pat D 07:44:06 09/22/07 (0)

RE: A Challenge To Measurements & DBT Proponents - thetubeguy1954 07:27:30 09/21/07 (3)

RE: That clears up a lot! - EBradMeyer 21:35:54 09/21/07 (0)

RE: A Challenge To Measurements & DBT Proponents - gymwear5@hotmail.com 10:49:33 09/21/07 (0)

RE: A Challenge To Measurements & DBT Proponents - Pat D 07:57:16 09/21/07 (0)

I think making measurements or studying measurements made by others before an audition may be a mistake - Richard BassNut Greene 09:10:33 09/20/07 (9)

You're confusing measurements with "specifications" - Presto 12:21:26 09/20/07 (8)

I may be confused about things in general, but I'm not confusing measurements and specs - Richard BassNut Greene 14:16:57 09/21/07 (0)

Name them... - rick_m 19:46:48 09/20/07 (4)

Interesting stuff. Read this article on the FTC amp rules... - Presto 22:39:33 09/20/07 (3)

Bummer... - rick_m 08:04:57 09/21/07 (2)

RE: Bummer... - Dan Banquer 08:37:05 09/21/07 (0)

It certainly is! (nt) - Pat D 08:29:58 09/21/07 (0)

RE: You're confusing measurements with "specifications" - thetubeguy1954 13:10:37 09/20/07 (1)

Ooops. That was for you, Tubeguy, not RBNG... but anyways... - Presto 15:34:40 09/20/07 (0)

Does your "Objectivists" exist? - soulfood 16:50:30 09/19/07 (50)

Not many objectivists nor many subjectivists exist - kerr 07:41:12 09/20/07 (20)

Did you exaggerate to make your point? - soulfood 10:03:39 09/20/07 (6)

Slightly, perhaps - kerr 10:27:00 09/20/07 (5)

"Assuming you're more objectivist than subjectivist, would you like to start? " Oh boy! - soulfood 16:02:55 09/20/07 (4)

RE: "Assuming you're more objectivist than subjectivist, would you like to start? " Oh boy! - kerr 17:28:01 09/20/07 (3)

Never a non-response from the good people ("seekers of truth"). - soulfood 20:41:34 09/20/07 (2)

On our POV? Yes, you're correct. Happy to see you noticed (nt) - kerr 04:11:39 09/21/07 (1)

Yourself excluded, another manufactured entity. (nt) - soulfood 04:30:02 09/21/07 (0)

100% Correct Kerr - thetubeguy1954 08:13:02 09/20/07 (10)

Sorry Kerr and TG54, but being between two extremes is not a criterion of truth. - Pat D 06:23:31 09/21/07 (9)

But on the other hand ... - Richard BassNut Greene 12:44:56 09/22/07 (0)

True enough - kerr 07:44:46 09/21/07 (2)

(maybe) "we could get some sense knocked into us subjectivists?" - Richard BassNut Greene 14:22:26 09/21/07 (1)

That wasn't funny! - kerr 17:05:30 09/21/07 (0)

RE: Sorry Kerr and TG54, but being between two extremes is not a criterion of truth. - thetubeguy1954 07:30:14 09/21/07 (4)

RE: Sorry Kerr and TG54, but being between two extremes is not a criterion of truth. - Pat D 08:32:20 09/21/07 (3)

90% Of What You Post (NT) - thetubeguy1954 09:02:30 09/21/07 (2)

As I thought, no evidence at all. - Pat D 11:51:01 09/21/07 (1)

Look In The Mirror! - thetubeguy1954 12:31:50 09/21/07 (0)

Who died and made you the Ambassador of Peace and Goodwill among Audiophiles? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:09:33 09/20/07 (1)

I have my own category??? - kerr 08:32:02 09/20/07 (0)

RE: Does your "Objectivists" exist? - thetubeguy1954 05:45:06 09/20/07 (28)

"They believe Subjectivists feel ALL measurements [etc.] are useless." Yes. And it's a FALSE belief! nt - clarkjohnsen 08:46:00 09/20/07 (0)

"Personally I don't understand a good portion of what a lot of the Objectivists here believe ... " - Richard BassNut Greene 07:40:35 09/20/07 (26)

Sorry Richard But You're Incorrect! - thetubeguy1954 08:24:57 09/20/07 (24)

RE: Sorry Richard But You're Incorrect! - Steve Eddy 08:59:50 09/20/07 (22)

Actually Steve - thetubeguy1954 05:54:49 09/21/07 (21)

RE: Actually Steve - Steve Eddy 09:02:23 09/21/07 (20)

I don't Know Of ANY Objectivists Here Who... - thetubeguy1954 09:13:43 09/21/07 (19)

RE: I don't Know Of ANY Objectivists Here Who... - Steve Eddy 09:42:05 09/21/07 (18)

RE: I don't Know Of ANY Objectivists Here Who... - thetubeguy1954 11:03:17 09/21/07 (17)

RE: I don't Know Of ANY Objectivists Here Who... - Steve Eddy 12:02:45 09/21/07 (16)

Oh, NO!!!!! - kerr 13:35:00 09/21/07 (3)

RE: Oh, NO!!!!! - thetubeguy1954 15:10:32 09/23/07 (0)

RE: Oh, NO!!!!! - AJinFLA 13:57:35 09/21/07 (1)

RE: Oh, NO!!!!! - kerr 17:00:01 09/21/07 (0)

a) Taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision...Bingo! (nt) - AJinFLA 13:08:30 09/21/07 (0)

RE: I don't Know Of ANY Objectivists Here Who... - thetubeguy1954 12:36:34 09/21/07 (1)

RE: I don't Know Of ANY Objectivists Here Who... - Steve Eddy 19:35:48 09/21/07 (0)

Oh..no... I sense a YOU! WRONG! LIAR! forthcoming (nt) - AJinFLA 12:13:45 09/21/07 (8)

Say it isn't so! (nt) - Pat D 12:34:33 09/21/07 (7)

it isn't so! - thetubeguy1954 12:42:07 09/21/07 (6)

Are you the guy that found the singing frog? (nt) - Pat D 12:49:09 09/21/07 (5)

Nah The Frog Is A "Bi" Product Of You & Your Little Buddy FroLicking In The Playpen (nt) - thetubeguy1954 13:32:13 09/21/07 (0)

VERY provocative Pat. You liked that one huh :-) (nt) - AJinFLA 13:05:51 09/21/07 (3)

Giving credit where it's due... - kerr 13:36:54 09/21/07 (2)

RE: Giving credit where it's due... - AJinFLA 13:44:59 09/21/07 (1)

Hey -- awesome! - kerr 17:07:15 09/21/07 (0)

Impossible, I haven't been incorrect since 1964 - Richard BassNut Greene 08:48:24 09/20/07 (0)

"But decades of blind test results ..." - bjh 08:04:14 09/20/07 (0)

Missing a point? - tomservo 10:43:32 09/19/07 (11)

Missing a point? Let's check: Engineering theory-no Measurements-no Ears-yes Brain-no. Hey, 1 of 4 ain't bad :-) - AJinFLA 15:16:27 09/19/07 (0)

RE: Missing a point? - thetubeguy1954 14:27:03 09/19/07 (9)

Sorry to hear - Russ57 15:39:01 09/19/07 (8)

RE: Sorry to hear - AJinFLA 16:04:13 09/19/07 (7)

A work in progress - Russ57 16:52:28 09/19/07 (6)

Slow work takes time - AJinFLA 14:14:19 09/20/07 (5)

RE: Slow work takes time - The Bored 14:58:33 09/20/07 (4)

"Banner"? What's that? "Audio Circle"? Who they? Worth checking out? Are they competitors? nt - clarkjohnsen 08:43:38 09/21/07 (0)

RE: Slow work takes time - AJinFLA 15:07:53 09/20/07 (2)

RE: Slow work takes time - The Bored 15:16:46 09/20/07 (1)

RE: Slow work takes time - AJinFLA 15:57:07 09/20/07 (0)

The correct answer is "all of the above"...(nt) - mkuller 09:29:55 09/19/07 (0)

1977 Stereophile Article on Amplifier Distortion - geoffkait 09:11:08 09/19/07 (15)

RE: 1977 Stereophile Article on Amplifier Distortion - Awe-d-o-file 17:19:28 09/20/07 (1)

RE: 1977 Stereophile Article on Amplifier Distortion - geoffkait 07:25:19 09/21/07 (0)

Well, well, well - clarkjohnsen 10:38:39 09/19/07 (12)

You are so wrong it is beyond pathetic! - bjh 12:14:24 09/19/07 (11)

"What is it the objectivists never tire of telling us?" ...... That you are a buffoon? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:34:40 09/20/07 (4)

I was... - bjh 09:39:47 09/20/07 (0)

Richard, BJH Is An Equal Opportunity Meglomaniac - thetubeguy1954 08:44:54 09/20/07 (2)

Is that good or bad? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:58:42 09/20/07 (1)

It's BJH, It HAS To Be Bad - thetubeguy1954 11:54:43 09/20/07 (0)

BJH You are so wrong it is beyond pathetic! - thetubeguy1954 06:04:12 09/20/07 (5)

"Then these same lovers of measurements and DBTs..." And there you have it! - clarkjohnsen 08:39:59 09/20/07 (0)

RE: BJH You are so wrong it is beyond pathetic! - bjh 07:25:49 09/20/07 (3)

Uh-oh (nt) - AJinFLA 07:36:38 09/20/07 (2)

I wish he would learn his limits ... - bjh 07:44:01 09/20/07 (1)

BGH I Still Remember When You Thought EVERYONE - thetubeguy1954 08:30:22 09/20/07 (0)

Regarding the former, everyone's gotta read Charles Hansen's forceful letter on p.208 of the Oct. SP. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:42:18 09/19/07 (2)

Can you summarize it for me as I'm no longer a reader of either? - tlyyra 12:23:03 09/19/07 (0)

SP eh. Hang on, I'll retrieve it from the bottom of the bird cage....Ran out of newspaper y'know (nt) - AJinFLA 10:30:44 09/19/07 (0)

The third option truthseekerprime mentioned - KlausR. 05:06:52 09/19/07 (23)

I'm game! - bjh 10:08:40 09/19/07 (6)

ps - bjh 05:15:09 09/20/07 (5)

I think you are third on the list - Russ57 13:58:23 09/20/07 (4)

I dunno... - bjh 14:24:24 09/20/07 (3)

I'm Willing To Forward The CD - thetubeguy1954 05:24:09 09/21/07 (2)

Thanks, you have mail. PLUS ---) Suggestion for Participants (-- - bjh 08:00:43 09/21/07 (1)

Everything is on one CD - Russ57 16:01:16 09/21/07 (0)

RE: The third option truthseekerprime mentioned - thetubeguy1954 05:55:42 09/19/07 (15)

RE: Points 1-3 - KlausR. 06:58:00 09/19/07 (6)

RE: Points 1-3 - thetubeguy1954 10:31:04 09/19/07 (0)

I am game but... - Russ57 07:37:40 09/19/07 (4)

Hey Russ57 - thetubeguy1954 07:01:36 09/20/07 (2)

Did you get my email? - Russ57 07:15:51 09/21/07 (1)

RE: Did you get my email? - thetubeguy1954 09:16:07 09/21/07 (0)

You have mail... - KlausR. 09:22:59 09/19/07 (0)

"...yet not one Objectivist will come here so I can provide said proof!" - truthseekerprime 06:05:59 09/19/07 (7)

RE: "...yet not one Objectivist will come here so I can provide said proof!" - thetubeguy1954 10:32:51 09/19/07 (0)

Come where? The haunted house silly! How else ya gonna hear dem ghosts? Over the telephone line? Sheesh (nt) - AJinFLA 06:28:17 09/19/07 (5)

I'm scared! - truthseekerprime 06:44:47 09/19/07 (4)

Do you remember the Singing Frog? - AJinFLA 07:43:14 09/19/07 (3)

My hero! - Pat D 12:42:36 09/21/07 (0)

One of the greatest cartoons of all time! - andy_c 17:16:19 09/19/07 (1)

Oh yes and for those not as familiar, the gentleman did end up in...an Asylum :-). (nt) - AJinFLA 07:47:21 09/22/07 (0)

Yup yup, I'm certain, that one was .05% THD, the one just before was .03%. - bjh 22:41:20 09/18/07 (0)

RE: A Challenge To Measurements & DBT Proponents - Todd Krieger 20:41:47 09/18/07 (1)

Good post.... - SF tech 21:13:13 09/18/07 (0)

or 3) the test subject hasn't learned to correlate measured parameters with what he thinks he's hearing. n/t - Ugly 20:38:25 09/18/07 (1)

Test? Correlate?? Measure??? Parameters???? THINK?????....Huh?..What? n/t - AJinFLA 15:22:51 09/19/07 (0)

or my response, 3) I'm too lazy. -nt - Axon 20:29:53 09/18/07 (0)

looking for elephants with a microscope. - chris_w 16:25:35 09/18/07 (2)

RE: looking for elephants with a microscope. - Todd Krieger 20:52:55 09/18/07 (1)

RE: looking for elephants with a microscope. - chris_w 00:39:55 09/19/07 (0)

I'm afraid you missed something... - truthseekerprime 14:52:23 09/18/07 (4)

RE: I'm afraid you missed something... - Todd Krieger 21:02:56 09/18/07 (3)

"But the problem isn't whether or not measurements are more-sensitive within each measurement's scope" - truthseekerprime 05:59:34 09/19/07 (0)

That *can* be shown. - tlyyra 04:26:54 09/19/07 (1)

What about... - bjh 14:29:40 09/19/07 (0)

Engineers figured out how to design good voltage multipliers in the 1960's - Richard BassNut Greene 13:42:12 09/18/07 (3)

RE: Engineers figured out how to design good voltage multipliers in the 1960's - morricab 09:14:24 09/20/07 (0)

RE: Engineers figured out how to design good voltage multipliers in the 1960's - rick_m 20:53:07 09/19/07 (0)

I Know YOU Believe This Richard - thetubeguy1954 14:21:55 09/18/07 (0)

You need to understand the measurements before you start dismissing them as irrelevant. (nt) - SF tech 13:18:08 09/18/07 (22)

Typical Objectivist Response - thetubeguy1954 14:12:46 09/18/07 (21)

Hmmm . . . you give some amp specs but not the frequency response. - Pat D 18:56:57 09/19/07 (10)

RE: Hmmm . . . you give some amp specs but not the frequency response. - thetubeguy1954 06:42:04 09/20/07 (9)

RE: Hmmm . . . you give some amp specs but not the frequency response. - Pat D 11:49:48 09/20/07 (8)

RE: Hmmm . . . you give some amp specs but not the frequency response. - thetubeguy1954 13:36:49 09/20/07 (7)

You missed the point about your confusing specs and measurements. - Pat D 15:12:03 09/20/07 (6)

Sorry You Cannot Follow This Simple Posts. I Cannot Dumb Them Down Any Further For You.... - thetubeguy1954 19:06:47 09/20/07 (5)

Just because measurements are of no use to *you* for predicting sound quality . . . - Pat D 06:12:20 09/21/07 (4)

RE: Just because measurements are of no use to *you* for predicting sound quality . . . - thetubeguy1954 07:45:54 09/21/07 (3)

RE: Just because measurements are of no use to *you* for predicting sound quality . . . - Pat D 08:28:34 09/21/07 (2)

RE: Just because measurements are of no use to *you* for predicting sound quality . . . - thetubeguy1954 13:45:18 09/21/07 (1)

So now you change your ground . . . - Pat D 17:09:50 09/21/07 (0)

"I don't just dismiss measurements..." You just did! - SF tech 14:38:25 09/18/07 (9)

RE: "I don't just dismiss measurements..." You just did! - thetubeguy1954 06:21:31 09/19/07 (6)

Sorry, you're backtracking... - SF tech 14:01:39 09/19/07 (5)

RE: Sorry, you're backtracking... - thetubeguy1954 08:37:26 09/20/07 (4)

You seem to have a pathological need to label people on this forum... - SF tech 11:48:21 09/20/07 (3)

RE: You seem to have a pathological need to label people on this forum... - thetubeguy1954 14:22:12 09/20/07 (2)

Nah, I'm done trying to talk sense to you... - SF tech 15:01:30 09/20/07 (1)

Nah, You're Just Tired Of Being Shown To Be Wrong! - thetubeguy1954 19:11:23 09/20/07 (0)

RE: "I don't just dismiss measurements..." You just did! - theaudiohobby 05:14:16 09/19/07 (1)

RE: "I don't just dismiss measurements..." You just did! - thetubeguy1954 06:24:46 09/19/07 (0)

Follow Ups

Rick what scientifically acceptable method should be used to demonstrate that audiophiles do indeed "hear it"? - AJinFLA 09/24/0715:53:37 09/24/07 (1)

Only too happy to repeat the answer - E-Stat 09:23:15 09/26/07 (0)

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