Home General Asylum

General audio topics that don't fit into specific categories.

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] Thread: [ Display  All  Email ] [ General Asylum ] [ Return to Search Results ]
[ Alert Moderator ]

ASR forums, Toole and Olive. When science creates a religious cult

Maybe a bit click baitish but not really. Years ago I was quite literally banned from the Audio Science Review forums for simply questioning two tenets of the Toole/Olive speaker research. 1. That their research is superior because it is pure science based 2. That their subjective speaker test results were universally transferable to real world use.

#1 is directly connected to #2 so let's start with #2

Floyd Toole followed by Sean Olive created and utilized a system for doing double blind preference tests for speakers using a very expensive mechanism dubbed the Harmon Shuffler. It allows quick switching of speakers in one room without changing speaker position which allows for quick switching double blind preference tests.

Personally I agree with the reason for the quick switching and the double blind protocols. I have no argument with Toole and Olive on the value of that.

Here's the catch (sorry if it's old news for those familiar with all of this) The tests are done 1. in mono 2. in one room 3. from one speaker position 4. from one listener position. 5 using a very narrow range of source material

The tenet is that the preferences listeners have under these very narrow conditions, conditions that do not represent the end usage of stereo playback are universally applicable to stereo playback in a wide array of rooms with various room treatments in various speaker listener positioning configurations with a wide array of source material regardless of the use of DSP room/speaker correction or DSP speaker cross talk cancelaation. (I am mentioning that particular DSP for a very specific reason)

I call this a tenet because to date no one, not Olive or Toole much less the deciples of their religious cult following have ever cited any actual scientific research that proves the claimed universal transferability of those test results to the wide array of stereo playback possibilities

Whenever I have pointed this out the Toole/Olive deciples fall back on the same mantra "read the Floyd Toole book Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms." I have.Twice. Cover to cover. Gone over specific chapters multiple times. If there are any citations of the research showing transferability I can't find them. When I mention this the "deciples" they retort with a barrage of Ad Hominem and zero substance. The ONLY research anyone has cited was Toole citing one study they did involving two speaker systems in stereo in two rooms of marginally different dimensions. No mention of speaker placement optimization for the non HK based *competetive* product (important to always remember the HK endevour, however scientific it was, alsoe was a commercial endevour) No evidence of any attempt to optimize either room using room treatments for the non HK based designed speakers. No use of DSP etc etc. IOW it was still a very narrow piece of research that hardly supported the tenet of universal transferability of those subjective speaker preference test results.

Pointing this out simply lead to me being banned from the forum.


So I have a couple questions for anyone who believes in the Toole/Olive approach to speaker design and if anyone wants to alert either Toole or Olive to my post please do. I'd love to have them make their case here on a neutral forum where questioning these things is allowed.

question 1. (more of a request really) Let's see that research that shows the preference tests are universally applicable to stereo playback with all the reasonable variables I have already cited

questiuon 2. How do you know your approach gives subjectively better results than the particular alternative of using highly directional speakers in a highly acoustically treated room that substantially reduces all early room reflections and utilizes room/speaker correction DSP and speaker crosstalk reduction DSP? You can't extrapolate the effects of those conditions on any highly directional speaker design using the HK protocols.




This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
  Schiit Audio  

Topic - ASR forums, Toole and Olive. When science creates a religious cult - Analog Scott 11:00:10 03/27/22 (103)
FAQ

Post a Message!

 Forgot Password?
Moniker (Username):
Password (Optional):
  Remember my Moniker & Password  (What's this?)    Eat Me
E-Mail (Optional):
Subject:
Message:   (Posts are subject to Content Rules)
Optional Link URL:
Optional Link Title:
Optional Image URL:
Upload Image:
E-mail Replies:  Automagically notify you when someone responds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]