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In Reply to: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? posted by Analog Scott on December 23, 2021 at 10:48:24:
If you cannot hear the m.sic clearly and distinctly you cannot possibly judge it on it's own m.rits. This is basic fact.You m.ght form an indistinct kind of sentim.ntal attachm.nt to any m.sic perform.nce in any type of venue (good or bad) sim.ly because it is m.sic, but the greater perform.nce venues are acoustically congenial environm.nts that let you hear what is actually going on in a perform.nce - so you don't have to guess at what M.GHT be going on in it. Lesser perform.nce venues do the opposite of what great venues do - they sm.ar and conceal details and dynam.cs that m.ke up the true sound (the "reference" sound ?) of any m.sical perform.nce.
So, the first requirem.nt for JUDGEM.NT is "audibility". This is what I said in m. initial post (down below_) and now, I'm saying it again. Because it is true.
All of that said, is the m.st basic "requirem.nt" for judging a perform.nce necessarily the sam. thing as he m.st basic "reference" for judging it ? I don't know.
And I, for one, am not sure there is a logical answer to such a vague question as yours. I'm also starting to think that you are not sure what the answer is (or m.ght be) either...
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - Analog Scott 10:48:24 12/23/21 (223)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - Krav Maga 20:04:46 03/3/22 (4)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - geoffkait 05:19:23 03/4/22 (3)
- "Good ears are made, not born." - Krav Maga 16:52:26 03/7/22 (2)
- RE: "Good ears are made, not born." - geoffkait 11:06:39 03/8/22 (1)
- "...Woulda, shoulda, coulda. If I was 6' 10' I could have played pro b-ball." - Krav Maga 12:01:57 03/8/22 (0)
- You don't need a reference for live music! - StephenJK 04:27:58 03/1/22 (0)
- The most basic REQUIREMENT for judging live acoustic music is "audibility" - peppy m. 12/27/2111:32:54 12/27/21 (12)
- Good is the enemy of the best - geoffkait 16:09:45 12/27/21 (0)
- My answer - Analog Scott 14:15:54 12/27/21 (10)
- The starting transient or "initial attack" phase of any sound or instrument ... - peppy m. 11:55:59 12/28/21 (1)
- RE: The starting transient or "initial attack" phase of any sound or instrument ... - geoffkait 05:29:46 03/9/22 (0)
- My answer - E-Stat 09:02:44 12/28/21 (7)
- Sorry but that is just not true - Analog Scott 09:33:06 12/28/21 (6)
- Clearly, we hear differently - E-Stat 09:49:15 12/28/21 (5)
- I'm fine with other opinions - Analog Scott 11:02:51 12/28/21 (4)
- It's truly sad... - E-Stat 11:16:01 12/28/21 (3)
- typical audiophile disconnect with reality - Analog Scott 11:46:26 12/28/21 (2)
- Scott's an "audiophile" and a scientist." - geoffkait 13:20:38 12/28/21 (0)
- Yours is the last word -nt - E-Stat 11:53:47 12/28/21 (0)
- I Look At This Thread..... And......... - Todd Krieger 09:36:37 12/27/21 (0)
- Vienna, Berliner, Chicago, Boston, Kingsway Hall - geoffkait 09:48:39 12/26/21 (0)
- Can the sound quality of a venue be objectively measured? - Feanor 05:15:45 12/26/21 (12)
- the sound quality of a venues are objectively measured? - Analog Scott 08:37:51 12/26/21 (11)
- And "digital tricks" can, paradoxically, result in. . . - Chris from Lafayette 15:13:35 12/26/21 (0)
- So would 'live sound' in a good-measuring hall be the standard? - Feanor 11:55:08 12/26/21 (9)
- RE: So would 'live sound' in a good-measuring hall be the standard? - Analog Scott 13:29:09 12/26/21 (8)
- Your extensive experience seems to support my skepticism - Feanor 04:33:19 12/27/21 (7)
- Single live sound? - Goober58 09:04:02 12/27/21 (4)
- RE: Single live sound? - Analog Scott 10:00:26 12/27/21 (3)
- RE: Single live sound? - Goober58 12:11:12 12/27/21 (2)
- don't under estimate the value of measurements - Analog Scott 13:48:45 12/27/21 (1)
- I don't remember the last time i measured anything. - geoffkait 04:27:30 12/29/21 (0)
- yeah, I think we pretty much agree - Analog Scott 08:52:16 12/27/21 (1)
- RE: yeah, I think we pretty much agree - Goober58 09:17:30 12/27/21 (0)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - Tre' 14:10:58 12/25/21 (72)
- That is an interesting answer - Analog Scott 16:24:15 12/25/21 (71)
- RE: That is an interesting answer - Tre' 19:40:55 12/25/21 (70)
- "Who am I to judge?" - Analog Scott 20:48:19 12/25/21 (69)
- RE: "Who am I to judge?" - Tre' 21:30:50 12/25/21 (68)
- I think this goes right to the heart of it - Analog Scott 23:56:04 12/25/21 (67)
- That record/CD/download is not a keeper. - Goober58 10:37:28 12/26/21 (0)
- RE: I think this goes right to the heart of it - Tre' 06:19:23 12/26/21 (64)
- RE: I think this goes right to the heart of it - Analog Scott 11:13:51 12/26/21 (63)
- "One dimensional signal" - geoffkait 18:12:46 12/26/21 (2)
- RE: "One dimensional signal" - roberttcan 19:52:23 02/28/22 (1)
- RE: "One dimensional signal" - geoffkait 13:47:10 03/2/22 (0)
- gone off the rails - Story 12:06:30 12/26/21 (2)
- i don't thinou are off the rails - Analog Scott 13:44:11 12/26/21 (1)
- off the rails again with remembrances - Story 15:49:41 12/26/21 (0)
- three dimensional acoustic waveform? - Tre' 11:48:01 12/26/21 (55)
- Yes, you have two ears. that is the magic key to stereo - Analog Scott 14:01:05 12/26/21 (23)
- Yes - but some illusions are more accurate than others - Chris from Lafayette 14:52:19 12/26/21 (15)
- not hung up on that at all - Analog Scott 16:47:36 12/26/21 (14)
- We've discussed this before - probably no need to rehash it in this thread [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 00:39:10 12/27/21 (0)
- RE: not hung up on that at all - RV817 18:54:20 12/26/21 (12)
- RE: not hung up on that at all - Analog Scott 21:29:44 12/26/21 (11)
- RE: not hung up on that at all - RV817 21:36:29 12/26/21 (10)
- where's the beef? - Analog Scott 09:12:27 12/27/21 (9)
- RE: where's the beef? - RV817 11:31:17 12/27/21 (8)
- RE: where's the beef? - Analog Scott 13:51:39 12/27/21 (7)
- RE: where's the beef? - RV817 14:11:44 12/27/21 (6)
- RE: where's the beef? - Analog Scott 14:58:07 12/27/21 (5)
- RE: where's the beef? - Tre' 14:09:19 12/28/21 (1)
- RE: where's the beef? - Analog Scott 14:39:50 12/28/21 (0)
- RE: where's the beef? - RV817 19:00:55 12/27/21 (2)
- news to me - Analog Scott 23:36:06 12/27/21 (1)
- RE: news to me - RV817 12:23:57 12/28/21 (0)
- RE: Yes, you have two ears. that is the magic key to stereo - Tre' 14:08:10 12/26/21 (6)
- What about them? - Analog Scott 16:48:34 12/26/21 (4)
- RE: What about them? - Tre' 17:00:32 12/26/21 (3)
- RE: What about them? - Analog Scott 17:16:46 12/26/21 (2)
- RE: What about them? - Tre' 17:30:51 12/26/21 (1)
- I still enjoy both live music and audio - Analog Scott 08:54:02 12/27/21 (0)
- Trick question - geoffkait 14:38:12 12/26/21 (0)
- RE: three dimensional acoustic waveform? - pictureguy 12:29:37 12/26/21 (30)
- RE: three dimensional acoustic waveform? - Analog Scott 14:05:14 12/26/21 (1)
- "There be audiophiles in these waters" - geoffkait 11:32:07 12/27/21 (0)
- The four dimensions are L, W, H and time in normal parlance. See my post below. Nt - geoffkait 12:40:42 12/26/21 (27)
- ALL of which we can capture and reproduce now - via Dolby Atmos, DTS:X. . . Yeay! [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 14:46:48 12/26/21 (1)
- But my point is they are already in the recording. Nt - geoffkait 15:26:32 12/26/21 (0)
- RE: The four dimensions are L, W, H and time in normal parlance. See my post below. Nt - pictureguy 14:34:01 12/26/21 (24)
- Huh? - geoffkait 16:05:20 12/26/21 (23)
- RE: Huh? - pictureguy 19:00:38 12/26/21 (22)
- RE: Huh? - RV817 20:07:21 12/26/21 (21)
- RE: Huh? - pictureguy 20:21:27 12/26/21 (20)
- RE: Huh? - RV817 21:24:15 12/26/21 (19)
- RE: Huh? - pictureguy 21:41:34 12/26/21 (18)
- Huh? Again - geoffkait 06:43:17 12/27/21 (4)
- RE: Huh? Again - pictureguy 11:28:12 12/27/21 (3)
- Am I high? - geoffkait 12:41:17 12/27/21 (2)
- RE: Am I high? - pictureguy 13:38:44 12/27/21 (1)
- Putting words in my mouth - geoffkait 15:08:15 12/27/21 (0)
- RE: Huh? - RV817 22:40:05 12/26/21 (12)
- Spacetime, let's play catch-up - geoffkait 06:56:03 12/27/21 (11)
- RE: Spacetime, let's play catch-up - RV817 14:02:31 12/27/21 (3)
- I did not create reality - geoffkait 14:42:52 12/27/21 (2)
- RE: I did not create reality - RV817 19:31:47 12/27/21 (1)
- Pretzel logic - geoffkait 03:49:23 12/28/21 (0)
- RE: Spacetime, let's play catch-up - pictureguy 12:03:59 12/27/21 (6)
- Superman - geoffkait 13:24:42 12/27/21 (5)
- RE: Superman - pictureguy 13:42:37 12/27/21 (4)
- You're not paying attention, again - geoffkait 15:11:22 12/27/21 (3)
- RE: You're not paying attention, again - pictureguy 16:33:23 12/27/21 (2)
- Purpose - geoffkait 18:20:34 12/27/21 (1)
- RE: Purpose - pictureguy 18:32:04 12/27/21 (0)
- "Conversion of a 3 D acoustic waveform to two 1 D electrical signals" - geoffkait 11:35:47 12/26/21 (0)
- It comes down to good and bad? I wish you told us earlier. Nt - geoffkait 03:51:54 12/26/21 (0)
- Ramblings on comparisons, performance quality, and venue quaqlity (long) - Cpwill 13:17:45 12/24/21 (17)
- Criteria for judging sound - geoffkait 06:43:29 12/25/21 (9)
- so tell us what instruments you play yourself - Story 06:59:50 12/25/21 (8)
- TOTAL EVASION - Story 13:14:02 12/25/21 (3)
- No need to shout, be happy, you got what you expected for Christmas. Nt - geoffkait 13:27:41 12/25/21 (2)
- RE: No need to shout, be happy, you got what you expected for Christmas. Nt - Story 13:56:31 12/25/21 (1)
- Brain scan? Nt - geoffkait 15:47:21 12/25/21 (0)
- So tell us we're interested why you play with yourself. Nt - geoffkait 08:22:04 12/25/21 (3)
- Why ? Well, it's a long story... - peppy m. 13:14:53 12/25/21 (2)
- RE: Why ? Well, it's a long story... - Story 13:56:49 12/25/21 (1)
- Or maybe it's a short story ? (nt - peppy m. 15:47:08 12/25/21 (0)
- RE: Ramblings on comparisons, performance quality, and venue quaqlity (long) - Analog Scott 13:53:59 12/24/21 (6)
- RE: Ramblings on comparisons, performance quality, and venue quaqlity (long) - Cpwill 03:19:24 12/25/21 (5)
- Color of room - geoffkait 06:06:31 12/25/21 (4)
- Rose color. - peppy m. 12:38:39 12/25/21 (3)
- To match your eyes? Nt - geoffkait 13:24:32 12/25/21 (2)
- you two make such a lovely couple - Story 15:39:43 12/25/21 (1)
- Looks like jealousy has reared its ugly head. Nt - geoffkait 15:46:21 12/25/21 (0)
- easy - LtMandella 13:07:14 12/24/21 (6)
- other acoustic live music - Analog Scott 13:47:25 12/24/21 (4)
- RE: other acoustic live music - mlsstl 15:03:27 12/24/21 (3)
- Not sure why you went into judging stereo systems - Analog Scott 15:42:35 12/24/21 (2)
- RE: Not sure of =your= point... - mlsstl 05:44:42 12/25/21 (1)
- It doesn't bother me - Analog Scott 10:17:03 12/25/21 (0)
- Re: "Don't wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it." - geoffkait 13:28:03 12/24/21 (0)
- Two answers depending upon your perspective - E-Stat 11:32:32 12/24/21 (0)
- Can you hear the instruments clearly? - Dave_K 10:54:41 12/24/21 (0)
- Finding live acoustic music - M3 lover 09:41:45 12/24/21 (1)
- RE: Finding live acoustic music - Utley1 10:42:29 12/24/21 (0)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - Goober58 08:00:09 12/24/21 (0)
- Why would anyone judge home systems by judging live music? Thats a logical fallacy, no? Nt - geoffkait 06:02:26 12/24/21 (24)
- That has nothing to do with the question I asked nt - Analog Scott 13:00:10 12/24/21 (12)
- Let me refresh your memory - geoffkait 06:24:52 12/25/21 (4)
- Nope - Analog Scott 13:26:50 12/25/21 (3)
- I'm not buying it - geoffkait 13:35:21 12/25/21 (2)
- Given what you sell I don't think what you buy matters. nt - Analog Scott 16:26:27 12/25/21 (1)
- Beware the wrath of a hairdresser scorned. Nt - geoffkait 17:36:47 12/25/21 (0)
- Of course it does. - geoffkait 14:04:21 12/24/21 (6)
- It'smy question - Analog Scott 15:48:59 12/24/21 (5)
- RE: It'smy question - RV817 18:19:28 12/24/21 (3)
- fair point - Analog Scott 22:56:07 12/24/21 (2)
- RE: fair point - Cpwill 04:00:56 12/25/21 (1)
- If that is your idea of being argumentative... - Analog Scott 04:33:17 12/25/21 (0)
- It's my party and I'll cry if i want to. Lol Nt - geoffkait 16:55:22 12/24/21 (0)
- No -nt - E-Stat 10:21:40 12/24/21 (10)
- I think probably it is. - geoffkait 10:40:05 12/24/21 (9)
- Our opinions are completely different - E-Stat 11:18:54 12/24/21 (4)
- That's an old logical fallacy - whichever side has the most true believers has God on its side. Lol - geoffkait 12:39:18 12/24/21 (3)
- It is the height of the opiniated... - E-Stat 08:42:59 12/25/21 (2)
- It appears you've been following the wrong sheep. Nt - geoffkait 09:33:14 12/25/21 (1)
- Merry Christmas, Geoff -nt - E-Stat 13:27:00 12/25/21 (0)
- if you undertake something without an absolute goal - Story 11:07:30 12/24/21 (3)
- There is no absolute. Haven't you been listening? - geoffkait 12:55:11 12/24/21 (2)
- you still insist - Story 13:31:52 12/24/21 (1)
- Typical of breed - geoffkait 13:56:39 12/24/21 (0)
- Live acoustic vs Live amplified - tketcham 05:42:22 12/24/21 (2)
- RE: Live acoustic vs Live amplified - Goober58 08:30:37 12/24/21 (1)
- RE: Live acoustic vs Live amplified - tketcham 09:11:38 12/24/21 (0)
- In a Word ... - cawson@onetel.com 02:36:25 12/24/21 (0)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - tweaker456 22:31:58 12/23/21 (0)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - hahax@verizon.net 20:13:40 12/23/21 (7)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - RV817 21:17:13 12/23/21 (4)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - Analog Scott 21:25:51 12/23/21 (3)
- "a very different perspective" - M3 lover 09:20:01 12/24/21 (2)
- New thread or post that on this one? - Analog Scott 10:48:47 12/24/21 (1)
- RE: New thread - M3 lover 10:11:18 12/26/21 (0)
- That wasn't the question - Analog Scott 21:12:15 12/23/21 (1)
- RE: That wasn't the question - RV817 21:57:12 12/23/21 (0)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - G Squared 14:42:56 12/23/21 (4)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - Cpwill 04:31:22 12/25/21 (1)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - G Squared 06:01:05 12/26/21 (0)
- "It is obliviously a great venue." Freudian slip? :-) - geoffkait 15:20:09 12/23/21 (0)
- My reference is a small venue - Mike K 15:17:34 12/23/21 (0)
- Ears ? - AbeCollins 13:53:13 12/23/21 (0)
- The Best Venues We Can Find.......... - Todd Krieger 13:41:02 12/23/21 (5)
- RE: The Best Venues We Can Find.......... - Cpwill 12:51:18 12/24/21 (0)
- been to both - Analog Scott 13:52:39 12/23/21 (3)
- RE: been to both - Todd Krieger 03:48:58 12/24/21 (0)
- A Musician's Guide to Venue Acoustics - chocolate_lover 16:03:28 12/23/21 (0)
- RE: been to both - b.l.zeebub 15:03:37 12/23/21 (0)
- The "references" are basically the same in both cases - peppy m. 12:33:17 12/23/21 (17)
- You're close. Very close! - geoffkait 13:43:12 12/23/21 (8)
- If there are no *absolutes*, all of the "descriptors" you mentioned... - peppy m. 13:59:25 12/23/21 (7)
- You have feelings - geoffkait 15:12:07 12/23/21 (6)
- Yes, I do have feelings and they speak for themselves... - peppy m. 16:03:35 12/23/21 (5)
- My Babel Fish translator is broken. - geoffkait 16:24:45 12/23/21 (4)
- RE: My Babel Fish translator is broken. - RV817 17:54:25 12/23/21 (1)
- Live long and prosper - geoffkait 18:18:18 12/23/21 (0)
- Babble on - I'm not sure it matters... - peppy m. 16:55:20 12/23/21 (1)
- Good one! - geoffkait 17:26:53 12/23/21 (0)
- You came really close! - Analog Scott 13:39:03 12/23/21 (7)
- It seems you're really looking for - MaggiesAndCats 14:33:14 12/23/21 (3)
- RE: It seems you're really looking for - Analog Scott 15:04:28 12/23/21 (2)
- Okay - MaggiesAndCats 19:23:36 12/23/21 (0)
- here's an easy obtuse answer - Story 15:58:27 12/23/21 (0)
- Possibly, the "ultimate reference" is ..,. - peppy m. 14:07:22 12/23/21 (2)
- RE: Possibly, the "ultimate reference" is ..,. - Analog Scott 14:22:32 12/23/21 (1)
- Whatever. I think the basis is in aforementioned tactile qualities. (nt - peppy m. 15:55:09 12/23/21 (0)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - SoundMann 12:23:21 12/23/21 (1)
- This is not a question about judging recordings - Analog Scott 13:34:46 12/23/21 (0)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - ChesshireCat 11:49:48 12/23/21 (4)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - Analog Scott 12:18:52 12/23/21 (3)
- But isn't that the goal? - StephenJK 12:27:24 12/23/21 (2)
- forget any recordings, pretend it's the 19th century - Analog Scott 13:32:31 12/23/21 (1)
- I don't know that in the 19th century.... - StephenJK 16:23:43 12/23/21 (0)
- All judgement is subjective, by definition. - tinear 11:33:06 12/23/21 (0)
- RE: *if* "live acoustic music" is the reference for judging audio what is the reference for judging live acoustic music? - RV817 11:10:57 12/23/21 (0)
- plesaure & artistic intent - DrChaos 10:57:01 12/23/21 (8)
- RE: plesaure & artistic intent - Palustris 10:17:28 12/24/21 (4)
- RE: plesaure & artistic intent - Analog Scott 13:35:44 12/24/21 (2)
- RE: plesaure & artistic intent - Palustris 07:48:45 12/25/21 (1)
- "I suppose you don't go to hear live acoustic music. " - Analog Scott 13:29:08 12/25/21 (0)
- RE: plesaure & artistic intent - geoffkait 13:06:00 12/24/21 (0)
- Oh, I almost forgot - geoffkait 11:26:45 12/23/21 (0)
- And this cartridge to top it off...- - geoffkait 11:09:54 12/23/21 (0)
- You might change your mind if...- - geoffkait 11:07:57 12/23/21 (0)
Follow Ups
- The most basic REQUIREMENT for judging live acoustic music is "audibility" - peppy m. 12/27/2111:32:54 12/27/21 (12)
- Good is the enemy of the best - geoffkait 16:09:45 12/27/21 (0)
- My answer - Analog Scott 14:15:54 12/27/21 (10)
- The starting transient or "initial attack" phase of any sound or instrument ... - peppy m. 11:55:59 12/28/21 (1)
- RE: The starting transient or "initial attack" phase of any sound or instrument ... - geoffkait 05:29:46 03/9/22 (0)
- My answer - E-Stat 09:02:44 12/28/21 (7)
- Sorry but that is just not true - Analog Scott 09:33:06 12/28/21 (6)
- Clearly, we hear differently - E-Stat 09:49:15 12/28/21 (5)
- I'm fine with other opinions - Analog Scott 11:02:51 12/28/21 (4)
- It's truly sad... - E-Stat 11:16:01 12/28/21 (3)
- typical audiophile disconnect with reality - Analog Scott 11:46:26 12/28/21 (2)
- Scott's an "audiophile" and a scientist." - geoffkait 13:20:38 12/28/21 (0)
- Yours is the last word -nt - E-Stat 11:53:47 12/28/21 (0)