In Reply to: How do you manage to be wrong all the time? Even a coin flip is right half the time posted by Analog Scott on June 5, 2008 at 15:45:16:
and if these people actually did some real relevant research instead of just reading technical manuals they'd understand it.
Failing a DBT does not mean that people can't tell A and B apart for one and secondly it can never prove that A = B. They reliably give you numbers which are interesting but that's about it.
They base it on probability math. The notion that if you flip a coin you will get 50% heads is preposterous. It is based on past experience trying to predict future results. But there is really only 0% heads or 100% heads. With the tests it is entirely possible that the selector was 100% correct on his "so called" guess and 100% wrong on another guess. However that illustrates only that they can;t CONSISTENTLY tell the differences not that they could not tell them apart at all.
But if we call the differences subtle and we insist on meeting the .05 signifcance level then 6/10 ten times for a total score less one of 59/100 meets significance at the .05 exactly the same as 9/10.
Consider that 6/10 is deemed not better than chance and the test ends. But if we actually run (one person listening only) a high trial test then 6/10 is not a "stop the test" result. No indeed. If that listener gets that 59/100 (6/10 ten times) they have proved they could tell consistently the difference better than chance to the .05 level. And since more trials in this kind of test is better then why are they not done? Incompetence or laziness. The T however removes it on validity grounds because it's not the way people normally listen to music and test stressors come into play.
That said you could make the case that it's still better than sighted listening so you should trust it. Same with some of the drugs on the market - take the cholesterol drug because it may reduce a heart attack - it might also give you liver disease but you play the percentages.
Clearly where a DBT is useful is when someone claims HUGE differences - if that were true then you should be able to beat a 16 trial test.
Still it depends on the claim made as well.
"I can always hear a difference between cables" is different than
"I think cables make a very slight improvement but I probably could not always tell them apart a lot of the time"
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Follow Ups
- The T in the DBT is a bias introduced... - RGA 06/5/0819:54:42 06/5/08 (25)
- "Clearly where a DBT is useful is when someone claims HUGE differences " = WrOnG ... wRoNg ... WrOnG - Richard BassNut Greene 08:00:53 06/6/08 (22)
- RE: "Clearly where a DBT is useful is when someone claims HUGE differences " = WrOnG ... wRoNg ... WrOnG - RGA 14:51:35 06/6/08 (0)
- RE: "Clearly where a DBT is useful is when someone claims HUGE differences " = WrOnG ... wRoNg ... WrOnG - Analog Scott 09:11:33 06/6/08 (20)
- You are among the slowest audiophiles I've ever encountered -- did you take the short bus to school? - Richard BassNut Greene 12:02:18 06/6/08 (19)
- Bas nut you really are embarrassing your fellow objectivists - Analog Scott 10:27:15 06/7/08 (0)
- actually "everything sounds the same" is the myth. - Teresa 03:49:19 06/7/08 (10)
- I NEVER SAID "everything sounds the same" -- you appear brainwashed that all components sound different - Richard BassNut Greene 11:28:21 06/7/08 (9)
- From over 40 years of listening I have never in my entire life found 2 of anything that sound the same! NEVER - Teresa 16:56:54 06/7/08 (5)
- It's true because I say so is not exactly the scientific objective proof I was seeking - Richard BassNut Greene 13:04:10 06/8/08 (4)
- I can tell you why, that 50-75% of the time he/she liked that part of the song/selection better. - Teresa 18:49:48 06/8/08 (0)
- When have you ever sought "scientific objective proof" of anything? - Analog Scott 18:45:33 06/8/08 (2)
- "You only seek that which suits your dogma & reject everything that contradicts it."(every DOGMA has it's day) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:15:31 06/9/08 (1)
- RE: "You only seek that which suits your dogma & reject everything that contradicts it."(every DOGMA has it's day) - Analog Scott 14:06:33 06/9/08 (0)
- And no one said "everything sounds different," either, RBGN. - robert young 11:59:40 06/7/08 (2)
- Almost every statement by high-end audiophiles implies everything sounds different - Richard BassNut Greene 12:13:00 06/7/08 (1)
- ""I can't hear a difference" is rarely, if ever, claimed ... even when a component is compared with itself!" - robert young 12:28:27 06/7/08 (0)
- RE: You are among the slowest audiophiles I've ever encountered -- did you take the short bus to school? - RGA 14:58:20 06/6/08 (5)
- Short bus for you too? - Richard BassNut Greene 11:35:56 06/7/08 (4)
- Man you need help help finding the bus... - RGA 17:57:27 06/7/08 (3)
- I chased the bus to school every day ... and then back home too - Richard BassNut Greene 09:24:02 06/9/08 (0)
- RGA, re. Hi-Fi Choice, are you meaning to say ... - Feanor 04:15:46 06/8/08 (1)
- RE: RGA, re. Hi-Fi Choice, are you meaning to say ... - RGA 10:43:55 06/8/08 (0)
- Not that there's anything wrong with the short bus (nt) - Richard BassNut Greene 12:03:35 06/6/08 (0)
- It doesn't have to be. - Analog Scott 23:28:20 06/5/08 (1)
- RE: It doesn't have to be. - RGA 15:15:38 06/6/08 (0)