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General Asylum General audio topics that don't fit into specific categories. |
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General Asylum General audio topics that don't fit into specific categories. |
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In Reply to: Nope posted by Christine Tham on June 21, 2006 at 17:34:21:
NOTHING in the sampling theorem requires samples to be "infinitely valued".The ONLY thing the sampling theorem depends on is 1) the validity of the Fourier integral, which is valid for all real signals, and 2) the validity of the convolution theorem for the Fourier Transform.
Nothing more is required for the proof. End of discussion.
You DO, in your model, of course, ensure that your MODULATED signal (that you described elsewhere) is still meeting the Nyquist conjecture, aren't you, and you ARE dithering the quantizer, right?
I don't think you're an idiot, but you're wrong about the sampling theorem, all it requires is stated above. No need for "infinitely valued" data at all.
Quantization and sampling can be handled independently. The only thing that quantization introduces into sampling is a noise floor.
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - Audio resolution - kerr 07:16:16 06/20/06 (223)
- And the winner of the most posts to this thread is... - E-Stat 17:20:29 06/21/06 (2)
- A little premature? - Dave Kingsland 06:07:58 06/22/06 (0)
- Winner or Whiner (King of, that is)... - mkuller 19:26:45 06/21/06 (0)
- Audio resolution is the ability to retain as much of the original performance as possible with current equipment. - Teresa 17:08:27 06/20/06 (46)
- Based on your definition, your anwers are so wrong that I am stunned! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:55:34 06/22/06 (8)
- low resolution CD cannot create the illusion of live music as done in the demo from 1960's - Teresa 01:59:09 06/25/06 (0)
- You don't get out or listen much do you? - Teresa 18:46:09 06/22/06 (3)
- Your proof is nonsense (a few audiophile label recordings & your subjective opinions = cassettes sound better than CD's? - Richard BassNut Greene 07:35:56 06/24/06 (2)
- Also did the try the following comparisons between LP, CD, SACD and DVD-Audio I gave you? - Teresa 17:21:42 06/24/06 (0)
- Disconnect from reality? I have purchased and sold over 1000 CDs - Teresa 17:07:47 06/24/06 (0)
- Based on your illusion principle, live recordings on cassette could pass as high rez. (nt) - soulfood 12:52:27 06/22/06 (2)
- It's best to use 2 Track 15ips Analog for live recordings. I do not recommend using ANY consomer format for Masters. NT - Teresa 17:16:06 06/24/06 (1)
- That's a whole different topic. - soulfood 09:28:25 06/25/06 (0)
- Re: Audio resolution is the ability to retain as much of the original performance as possible with current equipment. - Tom Dawson 20:15:27 06/21/06 (0)
- Nice job - realistic as opposed to the theoritical below...(nt) - mkuller 13:20:56 06/21/06 (1)
- Why am I not surprised... (nt) - hexenboden 16:47:36 06/21/06 (0)
- Don't Totally Agree Either.... - Todd Krieger 12:10:59 06/21/06 (1)
- Re: Don't Totally Agree Either.... - soulfood 14:10:43 06/21/06 (0)
- Respectfully disagree. - Al Sekela 10:10:10 06/21/06 (6)
- Al, send me an email. (nt) - mkuller 11:40:25 06/21/06 (1)
- OK, done (nt) - Al Sekela 16:03:40 06/22/06 (0)
- Most SACDs, high resolution DVD-Audio or LPs DO NOT suffer from strident "massed strings" - Teresa 10:30:43 06/21/06 (3)
- Perhaps not, but one instance of Redbook CD playback that sounds good - Al Sekela 10:41:42 06/21/06 (2)
- So any PCM at 24 Bit 48kHz or lower including CD is more to susceptible RF noise than higher resolution PCM? - Teresa 11:03:30 06/21/06 (1)
- Don't know, could be. My point is that Redbook CD can be - Al Sekela 16:00:53 06/22/06 (0)
- Where did this ranking come from? - Fisherdude 21:05:52 06/20/06 (6)
- Yes from 30 years of careful listening. (nt) - Teresa 21:41:19 06/20/06 (3)
- That's 30 years of listening filtered through your own perceptions - Fisherdude 06:00:22 06/21/06 (2)
- I never claimed they were anyone's perceptions except my own. - Teresa 10:06:57 06/21/06 (0)
- Authoritative is not necessarily deceptive. (nt) - soulfood 07:36:48 06/21/06 (0)
- LOL! Her source is wishful thinking and a vivid imagination...(nt) - hexenboden 21:13:39 06/20/06 (1)
- These are how all the formats perform, nothing wishful about it. - Teresa 21:47:15 06/20/06 (0)
- Nice analysis (nt) - Joe Appierto 20:44:00 06/20/06 (10)
- Thanks Joe (;-) nt - Teresa 21:50:35 06/20/06 (0)
- You call this an analysis? - hexenboden 20:55:41 06/20/06 (8)
- If you give me a week I will post recordings that totally prove every ranking. - Teresa 21:49:43 06/20/06 (7)
- If you need a week - hexenboden 10:48:47 06/21/06 (1)
- I need a week to do all the typing for a hundred or so recordings and what versions were used. - Teresa 11:09:30 06/21/06 (0)
- Oh dear! Teresa - I disagree with the order of your list but...... - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 10:35:57 06/21/06 (1)
- Chris have you heard AIX's new DVD-Audio "BRAND NEW OPRY"? It's one of the best sounding DVD-Audio's I have - Teresa 11:22:36 06/21/06 (0)
- Don't waste your time... - mkuller 09:48:59 06/21/06 (1)
- The great "critic" strikes again - hexenboden 10:47:09 06/21/06 (0)
- No, that won't prove anything - Fisherdude 06:03:17 06/21/06 (0)
- Re: Audio resolution is the ability to retain as much of the original performance as possible with current equipment. - hahax@verizon.net 20:21:46 06/20/06 (0)
- Zowie!!!! - kerr 19:14:04 06/20/06 (5)
- Correct Resolution is not an absolute but degrees as nothing so far equals Live Music - Teresa 19:36:27 06/20/06 (4)
- Beveled edges have little to do with room reflections (nt) - hexenboden 20:41:50 06/20/06 (3)
- Wrong "diffraction or boundary reflection occurs when sound of the Drivers bounces off the front on the cabinet... - Teresa 21:58:08 06/20/06 (2)
- Yet another thing you understand nothing about (nt) - hexenboden 14:07:37 06/21/06 (1)
- Quote was directly from Infinity who made my speakers, so now you are insulting them as well? - Teresa 15:07:08 06/21/06 (1)
- Thanks to all - kerr 16:49:56 06/20/06 (95)
- In perceptual terms, I think it's ONLY personal... - real_jj 17:32:00 06/20/06 (94)
- Ah, jj! - kerr 19:04:14 06/20/06 (93)
- Yes, that's it. - real_jj 10:37:25 06/21/06 (1)
- Re: Yes, that's it. - kerr 12:49:16 06/21/06 (0)
- Re: Ah, jj! - Christine Tham 20:34:44 06/20/06 (90)
- Um, Christine, you're dead wrong on that. - real_jj 10:35:18 06/21/06 (4)
- Nope - Christine Tham 17:34:21 06/21/06 (3)
- Excuse me, but it's very rude of you to misteach this. - real_jj 06/21/0619:17:43 06/21/06 (2)
- *You* are accusing *me* of being rude??? - Christine Tham 20:35:26 06/21/06 (1)
- Yes, I am. - real_jj 22:03:09 06/21/06 (0)
- Re: Ah, jj! - morricab 01:43:27 06/21/06 (53)
- Um, no. - real_jj 10:41:04 06/21/06 (52)
- Re: Um, no. - morricab 02:28:03 06/22/06 (3)
- Well, the "how' is not hard to understand. - real_jj 12:14:03 06/22/06 (2)
- Re: Well, the "how' is not hard to understand. - morricab 06:04:01 06/23/06 (1)
- Hm, not sure where to start... - real_jj 10:56:12 06/23/06 (0)
- Not true - Christine Tham 17:40:04 06/21/06 (42)
- Instantaneous freq of FM signal vs Fourier spectrum - andy_c 06:55:38 06/24/06 (0)
- Re: Not true - Todd Krieger 21:39:39 06/21/06 (17)
- Again, you fail to realize... - real_jj 22:18:36 06/21/06 (16)
- I Don't Think That's the Case..... - Todd Krieger 23:09:51 06/21/06 (15)
- whatever you think of wikipedia - tunenut 10:27:16 06/22/06 (4)
- I Still Don't Think It's the Case..... - Todd Krieger 13:40:46 06/22/06 (2)
- did you read the link? - tunenut 14:02:59 06/22/06 (1)
- Did you see where he denied that the sinc function can be applied in frequency? - real_jj 14:17:07 06/22/06 (0)
- link - tunenut 10:31:10 06/22/06 (0)
- No, Todd, the "period" that the sum repeats at can be "infinity". - real_jj 10:21:23 06/22/06 (9)
- Re: No, Todd, the "period" that the sum repeats at can be "infinity". - Todd Krieger 13:54:18 06/22/06 (8)
- Stop denying the obvious, Todd. Go study the delta function. GO DO THE WORK! - real_jj 14:13:12 06/22/06 (7)
- Context..... - Todd Krieger 15:32:22 06/22/06 (6)
- You say: Granted for general Fourier analysis.... - real_jj 15:51:40 06/22/06 (5)
- Re: You say: Granted for general Fourier analysis.... - Todd Krieger 16:46:58 06/22/06 (3)
- No, Todd, that's not what I think they would say... - real_jj 16:54:46 06/22/06 (2)
- Do a Google Search.... - Todd Krieger 17:04:08 06/22/06 (1)
- Do a google search on "delta function", Todd... - real_jj 17:15:55 06/22/06 (0)
- Oh, and ... - real_jj 15:54:44 06/22/06 (0)
- Totally, absolutely wrong, Christine! - real_jj 19:58:54 06/21/06 (8)
- Again, a little less arrogance would perhaps be advisable - Christine Tham 20:18:42 06/21/06 (7)
- Let's see, is it arrogant to announce completely incorrect things in public? - real_jj 22:03:59 06/21/06 (6)
- OK, this is my final post - Christine Tham 03:22:08 06/22/06 (5)
- Re: OK, this is my final post - Dave Kingsland 10:16:42 06/22/06 (3)
- Re: OK, this is my final post - Christine Tham 17:32:19 06/22/06 (1)
- Tsk. You've embarrassed yourself, now you add insult to injury - real_jj 17:52:46 06/22/06 (0)
- Exactly. - real_jj 10:45:20 06/22/06 (0)
- You've taken things completely out of context. - real_jj 10:09:48 06/22/06 (0)
- strange statement - tunenut 19:21:21 06/21/06 (13)
- You'll find sidebands at the modulation spectrum/frequencies... - real_jj 20:01:38 06/21/06 (12)
- This is just absolutely irrelevant - Christine Tham 20:43:33 06/21/06 (11)
- Yes, I certainly have done Fourier analysis of a chirp. - real_jj 22:04:58 06/21/06 (0)
- why don't you just do a frequency analysis? - tunenut 20:54:24 06/21/06 (9)
- What makes you think I haven't? - Christine Tham 21:05:58 06/21/06 (8)
- Re: What makes you think I haven't? - andy_c 09:12:01 06/24/06 (0)
- questions - tunenut 08:52:06 06/22/06 (5)
- Re: questions - Christine Tham 17:46:05 06/22/06 (4)
- I was with you up to the last sentence - tunenut 18:07:43 06/22/06 (2)
- Re: I was with you up to the last sentence - Christine Tham 18:14:17 06/22/06 (1)
- And, of course, as the window gets shorter, - real_jj 21:10:44 06/22/06 (0)
- Sigh. - real_jj 17:54:04 06/22/06 (0)
- And, then, you assert a problem with sampling. - real_jj 22:05:54 06/21/06 (0)
- Here We Go Again..... - Todd Krieger 11:01:58 06/21/06 (4)
- Re: Here We Go Again..... - andy_c 19:38:48 06/23/06 (0)
- FYI..... - Todd Krieger 11:43:07 06/21/06 (1)
- That's good, Todd, that's part of what happens... - real_jj 13:06:47 06/21/06 (0)
- I see you're still misteaching. GET LOST - real_jj 11:31:30 06/21/06 (0)
- Finally some rational arguments - hexenboden 21:04:16 06/20/06 (30)
- Re: Finally some rational arguments - Christine Tham 22:11:00 06/20/06 (29)
- Re: Finally some rational arguments - Todd Krieger 12:17:17 06/21/06 (11)
- Is that so? - real_jj 13:07:42 06/21/06 (10)
- Re: Is that so? - Todd Krieger 13:42:08 06/21/06 (9)
- "flawed" means wrong. The sampling theorem is valid. Period. For anything. - real_jj 14:02:16 06/21/06 (8)
- Won't Get Caught Up On the Semantics, But..... - Todd Krieger 20:56:21 06/21/06 (1)
- Well, actually, it's exactly possible. - real_jj 22:23:50 06/21/06 (0)
- Practical implementations do not meet the conditions for the theorem to hold - Christine Tham 19:07:59 06/21/06 (5)
- No, Christine, it is not. - real_jj 19:13:56 06/21/06 (4)
- Re: No, Christine, it is not. - Christine Tham 19:26:45 06/21/06 (3)
- No, Christine, that is not how it works... - real_jj 19:53:50 06/21/06 (2)
- Your are falling into a hole ... - Christine Tham 20:10:17 06/21/06 (1)
- Actually, my post is conclusive... - real_jj 22:08:19 06/21/06 (0)
- "vinyl is my least preferred music format" - hexenboden 11:09:17 06/21/06 (3)
- Re: "vinyl is my least preferred music format" - Christine Tham 18:15:29 06/21/06 (1)
- The irony of it all... - real_jj 13:13:42 06/21/06 (1)
- That makes sense - hexenboden 14:08:59 06/21/06 (0)
- Your comments on the Shannon theorem - real_jj 10:48:11 06/21/06 (4)
- Re: Your comments on the Shannon theorem - Christine Tham 17:44:42 06/21/06 (3)
- Actually, no, it's not. - real_jj 22:11:33 06/21/06 (2)
- Re: Actually, no, it's not. - Christine Tham 03:29:53 06/22/06 (1)
- One "inconclusive" study and a dozen ones with clear results is not "inconclusive" - real_jj 10:15:11 06/22/06 (0)
- Re: Finally some rational arguments - Dave Kingsland 06:08:41 06/21/06 (4)
- Re: Finally some rational arguments - Christine Tham 17:54:12 06/21/06 (3)
- Re: Finally some rational arguments - Dave Kingsland 10:38:14 06/22/06 (2)
- Re: Finally some rational arguments - Christine Tham 17:56:31 06/22/06 (1)
- "where the error is exponentially large"??? - real_jj 21:13:04 06/22/06 (0)
- Re: Finally some rational arguments - kerr 05:20:37 06/21/06 (2)
- I can't answer for Christine but for me Vinyl has the highest resolution but I hate it because it is a PITA to care for. - Teresa 10:19:46 06/21/06 (1)
- Heh, heh - kerr 12:53:44 06/21/06 (0)
- Forget resolution, just enjoy the music - Christine Tham 16:42:24 06/20/06 (1)
- Excellent! - kerr 16:47:04 06/20/06 (0)
- "Just the facts, ma'am." - Al Sekela 13:00:42 06/20/06 (0)
- Re: Audio resolution - hexenboden 12:06:03 06/20/06 (47)
- WRONG see link - Teresa 17:12:39 06/20/06 (12)
- Re: WRONG see link - real_jj 17:28:11 06/20/06 (11)
- So you're saying cassettes don't have higher resolution than cd's? - powermatic 15:21:32 06/22/06 (0)
- Good job - hexenboden 20:05:08 06/20/06 (0)
- As far as ease of playing and acceptable resolution I prefer HDCD, which is 7th in order of resolution - Teresa 17:46:47 06/20/06 (8)
- Did you write a book about real estate? - hexenboden 21:15:31 06/20/06 (7)
- No that wasn't me, though I do some published poetry (nt) - Teresa 22:00:40 06/20/06 (6)
- Please share some - hexenboden 11:10:43 06/21/06 (5)
- OK here's one from 1971 - Teresa 15:13:55 06/21/06 (1)
- Thank you for sharing that (nt) - hexenboden 16:49:04 06/21/06 (0)
- here is one - tunenut 13:51:25 06/21/06 (2)
- Is this 100% of what you can do? (nt) - hexenboden 14:11:48 06/21/06 (1)
- yes (NT) - tunenut 14:31:49 06/21/06 (0)
- How do you figure? - mkuller 14:15:40 06/20/06 (9)
- infinity is like Santa Claus - tunenut 18:00:36 06/20/06 (0)
- Re: Nice try... - $orabji! 17:47:29 06/20/06 (0)
- Same old fallacy, written again... - real_jj 17:29:26 06/20/06 (3)
- So which one has the higher sampling rate and bandwidth? (nt) - mkuller 09:50:00 06/21/06 (1)
- Pick some relevant measure, and we'll discuss it, Mike. - real_jj 10:50:06 06/21/06 (1)
- Yes, but he is a "Critic" - hexenboden 19:31:10 06/20/06 (0)
- Re: How do you figure? - theaudiohobby 16:05:42 06/20/06 (1)
- Finally a learned man - hexenboden 16:18:06 06/20/06 (0)
- It is not infinite - hexenboden 14:23:43 06/20/06 (0)
- More pro-digital propaganda Tell us all about how great MP3,XM and Redbook 'sound'.. - thoriated 12:37:22 06/20/06 (23)
- Sorry, that's a heck of a load of straw men in one title there. - real_jj 17:26:16 06/20/06 (2)
- Re: Sorry, that's a heck of a load of straw men in one title there. - morricab 02:06:08 06/21/06 (1)
- You don't have to calculate a sampling rate. - real_jj 10:50:38 06/21/06 (0)
- I don't understand your question - hexenboden 14:24:49 06/20/06 (19)
- Really? PRO-DIGITAL in the face of reality propaganda is your specialty! DUH! (nt) - Teresa 17:19:00 06/20/06 (0)
- C'mon, really. Who's paying you to indiscriminately flack for digital? - thoriated 15:09:39 06/20/06 (17)
- Re: C'mon, really. Who's paying you to indiscriminately flack for digital? - Dave Kingsland 16:45:21 06/20/06 (15)
- Re: C'mon, really. Who's paying you to indiscriminately flack for digital? - thoriated 15:22:02 06/21/06 (0)
- Re: C'mon, really. Who's paying you to indiscriminately flack for digital? - hexenboden 17:05:06 06/20/06 (13)
- Re: C'mon, really. Who's paying you to indiscriminately flack for digital? - Dave Kingsland 18:10:58 06/20/06 (3)
- Theoretical resolution... - mkuller 14:35:45 06/21/06 (1)
- I told you you needed to upgrade your system...(nt) - hexenboden 10:28:20 06/22/06 (0)
- Interesting and illuminating - hexenboden 19:34:22 06/20/06 (0)
- You would need frequencies to about 50kHz. A cartridge that is flat to 25kHz will only be down about 5-10dB at 50kHz - Teresa 17:23:37 06/20/06 (8)
- To the sensible people out there (eg. not T.): about dynamic range - hexenboden 19:40:37 06/20/06 (7)
- My best audiophile LP pressings have less noise than many of my high resolution recordings - Teresa 19:51:54 06/20/06 (6)
- A new analog medium - hexenboden 20:10:09 06/20/06 (5)
- Re: A new analog medium - real_jj 15:55:51 06/22/06 (4)
- No in the new Analog medium the laser will read the entire waveform not samples of it. - Teresa 18:23:16 06/22/06 (3)
- Ok. At what SNR, I wonder? - real_jj 10:07:44 06/23/06 (2)
- Re: Ok. At what SNR, I wonder? - kerr 13:08:45 06/23/06 (1)
- I would think a blue laser read Analog disc would be in a caddy like Minidisc is - Teresa 18:25:04 06/23/06 (0)
- Oh really? - hexenboden 15:35:48 06/20/06 (0)
- HP's definition in TAS... - mkuller 10:46:46 06/20/06 (6)
- Nonsense - hexenboden 19:46:52 06/20/06 (3)
- Disagree with the message and give the messenger a break. - soulfood 08:31:59 06/21/06 (1)
- What is "... the highest level of enjoyment."? - Abel McCain 20:16:12 06/20/06 (1)
- That's a perfectly acceptable position - hexenboden 20:30:45 06/20/06 (0)
- Re: HP's definition in TAS - thanks great definitions! Must read for everyone - Teresa 17:27:00 06/20/06 (1)
- His definitions are eminently clear - E-Stat 17:25:08 06/21/06 (0)
- Re: Audio resolution - Awe-d-o-file 10:42:32 06/20/06 (0)
- the truth is, there is no good definition - tunenut 10:09:40 06/20/06 (3)
- "Detail retrieval". - Abel McCain 19:56:19 06/20/06 (1)
- I agree with you - tunenut 21:35:18 06/20/06 (0)
- I agree with "...it is the ability to resolve detail". Think of a beaded cymbal. - jeffreybehr 16:27:56 06/20/06 (0)
- A technical definition, an "audiophile" definition , and now, a good working definition. Why? (nt) - soulfood 08:35:21 06/20/06 (5)
- Why? I think it was Kermit the Frog who said... - kerr 09:16:25 06/20/06 (4)
- What has Kermit taught you so far about resolution? (nt) - soulfood 11:34:35 06/20/06 (3)
- Nothing. If he had, I wouldn't have to ask you! (nt) - kerr 12:41:10 06/20/06 (2)
- Alright, Kermit and "we" from your initial post are unrelated. (nt) - soulfood 13:15:12 06/20/06 (1)
- Damn! There goes our "G" rating (nt) - kerr 16:43:52 06/20/06 (0)
- Re: Audio resolution - LarryB 07:29:09 06/20/06 (7)
- Re: Audio resolution - Bersani 11:15:45 06/20/06 (6)
- With your definition - hexenboden 14:27:34 06/20/06 (5)
- Bummer - MylesJ 12:05:22 06/21/06 (0)
- I didn't define anything, but to clarify... - Bersani 18:06:18 06/20/06 (3)
- You seem to constantly miss the point - hexenboden 19:48:18 06/20/06 (2)
- Au contraire ;) -nt - Bersani 20:54:42 06/20/06 (1)
- Care to expand? (nt) - hexenboden 21:06:18 06/20/06 (0)
Follow Ups
- Excuse me, but it's very rude of you to misteach this. - real_jj 06/21/0619:17:43 06/21/06 (2)
- *You* are accusing *me* of being rude??? - Christine Tham 20:35:26 06/21/06 (1)
- Yes, I am. - real_jj 22:03:09 06/21/06 (0)
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