Richard just got stabbed with his own double-edged sword - kerr

Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - The DBT that proved all amplifiers sound DIFFERENT - Feanor 04:26:07 12/28/05 (161)

Here's some MORE TEST INFO - Feanor 10:23:41 12/31/05 (4)

You should be ashamed of yourself for presenting subjective auditions as "rigorous double-blind tests" - Richard BassNut Greene 09:47:41 01/2/06 (1)

Same yada-yada , still, your point is well taken - Feanor 06:33:16 01/3/06 (0)

Re: Here's some MORE TEST INFO - Dave Pogue 04:32:58 01/1/06 (1)

Saying anything you feel like saying about an amplifier is not a test of anything - Richard BassNut Greene 09:53:56 01/2/06 (0)

Interesting but... - morricab 10:09:40 12/30/05 (1)

morricab ... - Feanor 10:31:59 12/31/05 (0)

It's been two days... It still appears you have presented a subjective audition as "a very rigorous DBT" - Richard BassNut Greene 08:53:06 12/30/05 (3)

OK, BassNut - Feanor 09:50:18 12/30/05 (1)

I don't want a private e-mail -- share at least a summary of test results with everyone - Richard BassNut Greene 10:23:00 12/30/05 (0)

You know what, Richard? - Dave Pogue 09:26:45 12/30/05 (0)

Maybe you guys should debate less and listen more??? - TomWh 20:28:07 12/29/05 (1)

Re: Maybe you guys should debate less and listen more??? - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 05:11:08 12/30/05 (0)

Folks, HELLO! It was all very simple - Feanor 04:47:49 12/29/05 (28)

Yep- It's pretty strange alright. - GL 22:58:48 12/29/05 (0)

Funny how something so well meaning and seemingly - musetap 15:56:07 12/29/05 (0)

"RichardBassNutGreene -- Many thanks...for fulfilling Clark's prediction." Shucks, that was too easy! nt - clarkjohnsen 10:24:29 12/29/05 (1)

In fact every one of your predictions was wrong (even a stopped clock is right twice a day) - Richard BassNut Greene 10:56:38 12/29/05 (0)

The DBT that proved all amplifiers sound THE SAME - Richard BassNut Greene 07:22:24 12/29/05 (23)

"Objective": I don't think it means what you think if means! - Feanor 10:00:53 12/29/05 (0)

False indeed - Feanor 07:50:33 12/29/05 (21)

"It's "common knowledge" that DBTs of properly functioning amplifiers reveal no differences amongst them" - Richard BassNut Greene 08:52:12 12/29/05 (14)

Read up or shut up - Feanor 09:41:58 12/29/05 (13)

The golden ears often end up using character attacks when trying to refute an objective audiophile - Richard BassNut Greene 10:00:14 12/29/05 (12)

Re: A pity.. - theaudiohobby 22:16:25 12/29/05 (2)

This can not possibly be a "DBT debate" because there was no DBT ----- a subjective audition was falsely called a "DBT" - Richard BassNut Greene 07:55:00 12/30/05 (1)

Re: This can not possibly be a "DBT debate" because there was no DBT ----- a subjective audition was falsely called a "D - theaudiohobby 10:39:38 12/31/05 (0)

Oh please! Now you're the victim - Feanor 10:04:53 12/29/05 (8)

I said there was no test in my first post of this thread -- you've danced around that fact ever since - Richard BassNut Greene 10:25:25 12/29/05 (7)

You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper - Dave Pogue 17:14:15 12/29/05 (6)

Was any attempt made to prove any listener really had the ability to differentiate among amplifiers? - Richard BassNut Greene 07:34:47 12/30/05 (3)

The test consumed 19 solid pages of text, charts, and sine wave photos - Dave Pogue 08:09:16 12/30/05 (2)

I don't care if there were 190 pages -- was ANY attempt made to prove audibility of amplifier differences - Richard BassNut Greene 09:04:59 12/30/05 (1)

how about 191? - jneutron 10:32:23 12/30/05 (0)

Thanks again, Dave - Feanor 04:48:27 12/30/05 (1)

My pleasure - Dave Pogue 05:07:42 12/30/05 (0)

Richard just got stabbed with his own double-edged sword - kerr 12/29/0508:03:05 12/29/05 (5)

kerr, people are going to accuse me of writing YOUR posts just so I have such an easy target to refute - Richard BassNut Greene 09:06:05 12/29/05 (4)

But don't you see you're shooting down yourself? - kerr 10:06:48 12/29/05 (3)

Comparing a "test" to similar tests in the past three decades is as objective as one can be - Richard BassNut Greene 08:03:03 12/30/05 (2)

But your conclusions are anything but! - kerr 09:46:09 12/30/05 (1)

I questioned the label "DBT" -- and so far it seems that label was misleading - Richard BassNut Greene 10:40:31 12/30/05 (0)

Don't y'all have something better to do? - lanny 13:02:58 12/28/05 (10)

Apparently you donâ€™t have a revealing system - Caymus 17:36:15 12/28/05 (7)

Pardon, your insecurity is showing - lanny 15:20:20 12/29/05 (2)

Anyone who boasts of incredible hearing powers but offers no proof... - Caymus 17:55:58 12/29/05 (1)

Who mentioned "incredible hearing powers?" - lanny 14:25:44 12/30/05 (0)

I am wondering if you tried elevating all your cables off of the floor? - krisgel 04:22:42 12/29/05 (1)

Give it up, he's not gonna listen. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:27:47 12/29/05 (0)

The post you're replying to is just another variant of... - andy_c 21:21:27 12/28/05 (1)

If the shoe fits... nt - lanny 15:21:40 12/29/05 (0)

Yours is the conventional opinion, apparently ~nt - Feanor 15:59:58 12/28/05 (0)

Wires and resister leads sound differently -- Jeebus -nt- - Ivor the Engine Driver 13:38:07 12/28/05 (0)

DBTs have no place in audio. - GL 12:12:49 12/28/05 (2)

You've hit the nail on the head! - Feanor 15:58:36 12/28/05 (1)

I enjoyed your posting... - Wellfed 20:35:47 12/28/05 (0)

Published 30 years ago? I suppose not much has changed in 30 years...N/T - musetap 12:08:45 12/28/05 (0)

Your fundamental premise is wrong. - jsm 12:00:31 12/28/05 (13)

A very intelligent method for comparing audio components - Richard BassNut Greene 07:42:13 12/29/05 (1)

Louder, better, or just different? - Inmate51 13:29:49 01/2/06 (0)

Re: Your fundamental premise is wrong. - Inmate51 12:59:19 12/28/05 (10)

It's funny you should doubt me because of my spelling. - jsm 15:04:13 12/28/05 (7)

Didn't read your entire new post. If you don't know... - Inmate51 16:52:40 12/28/05 (6)

Dismissing testimony based on spelling is lame. (nt) - Presto 17:00:38 12/28/05 (5)

bull shut nt - Norm 19:22:40 12/28/05 (0)

Seconded. (nt) - Rob Thomas 17:19:02 12/28/05 (3)

Re: Seconded. (nt) - Inmate51 17:44:50 12/28/05 (2)

Re: Seconded... - Rob Thomas 19:04:18 12/28/05 (1)

Re: Spelling - Inmate51 19:50:19 12/28/05 (0)

I never claimed to know how to spell!!! (NT) - jsm 14:40:24 12/28/05 (1)

Re: I never claimed to know how to spell!!! (NT) - Inmate51 18:32:32 12/28/05 (0)

Feanor your post was pure "golden ear bait" that worked better than any post I've ever made -- you are a master ! - Richard BassNut Greene 11:42:32 12/28/05 (24)

Back in '75 - EGeddes 07:40:19 12/29/05 (22)

DBTs - Inmate51 12:03:13 12/30/05 (2)

Ok - EGeddes 13:17:58 12/30/05 (1)

Thank you. nt - Inmate51 19:56:31 01/1/06 (0)

Differences vs. Preferrences - morricab 10:24:23 12/30/05 (1)

But actually - EGeddes 10:58:03 12/30/05 (0)

Back in '75 there were only vinyl records with background noise, compressed dynamics and EQ as our sources - Richard BassNut Greene 09:21:07 12/29/05 (11)

Good points - EGeddes 09:44:37 12/29/05 (10)

Modern amplifier differences - morricab 10:38:56 12/30/05 (6)

Thanks for the note - EGeddes 11:06:52 12/30/05 (5)

What makes a difference - Inmate51 20:03:29 01/1/06 (0)

Re: Thanks for the note - morricab 12:45:38 12/30/05 (3)

Re: Thanks for the note - EGeddes 13:54:11 12/30/05 (2)

Re: Thanks for the note - morricab 10:27:25 12/31/05 (1)

Re: Thanks for the note - EGeddes 13:47:20 12/31/05 (0)

A real test in 1975 could have been useful - Richard BassNut Greene 10:39:24 12/29/05 (2)

Re: A real test in 1975 could have been useful - EGeddes 11:35:41 12/29/05 (1)

DBTs are as close to non-biased purely subjective listening as one can get - Richard BassNut Greene 09:14:44 12/30/05 (0)

Re: Back in '75 - kerr 08:07:10 12/29/05 (4)

I don't think - EGeddes 09:42:59 12/29/05 (3)

Sorry - critical omission on my part. - kerr 10:11:35 12/29/05 (2)

I wish - EGeddes 11:39:51 12/29/05 (1)

Re: I wish - kerr 12:13:01 12/29/05 (0)

Well gee shucks, thanks - Feanor 16:01:48 12/28/05 (0)

Re: The DBT that proved all amplifiers sound DIFFERENT - Inmate51 10:20:16 12/28/05 (1)

Well, yes, that's right - Feanor 10:43:39 12/28/05 (0)

I read your post and I thought about your post -- This sounds like a non-science (nonsense) test to me - Richard BassNut Greene 10:01:05 12/28/05 (9)

I very much agree with one part of your post specifically... - Presto 17:09:48 12/28/05 (0)

You're making this too easy for me! - kerr 16:08:04 12/28/05 (2)

It's always easy ... to be wrong -- THERE....WAS....NO....TEST....AT....ALL --- the original post fooled you and others! - Richard BassNut Greene 09:45:28 12/29/05 (1)

Is not knowing if you're right or wrong the same as being wrong? - kerr 10:21:17 12/29/05 (0)

Re: Mastertapes are not substitutes for commercial CDs that audiophiles listen to virtually all of the time" - Rob Doorack 10:37:46 12/28/05 (1)

Re: Mastertapes are not substitutes for commercial CDs that audiophiles listen to virtually all of the time" - Richard BassNut Greene 11:19:58 12/28/05 (0)

Many legitimate points -- except, possibly, your conclusion - Feanor 10:27:16 12/28/05 (2)

I think the test was pure BS -- however that doesn't mean the amplifier you bought was not a great amplifier! - Richard BassNut Greene 11:31:38 12/28/05 (0)

Since the magazine has been defunct for close to 30 years I doubt copyright is an issue.... - JimL 10:51:24 12/28/05 (0)

euphonic is the point... - docw 09:18:26 12/28/05 (0)

Amps do sound different. Period. - Godzilla. 08:34:49 12/28/05 (0)

One explanation for amps sounding different... - KlausR. 08:14:22 12/28/05 (3)

For marginal designs, perhaps, - Al Sekela 08:42:29 12/28/05 (2)

Oversimplification: "Class A rated" vs "marginal designs" - Sean 10:49:23 12/28/05 (1)

Re: Oversimplification: "Class A rated" vs "marginal designs" - Inmate51 08:32:38 12/29/05 (0)

These results are too, too easy to dismiss! Just look: - clarkjohnsen 07:56:38 12/28/05 (5)

Point by point, you have delivered a pretty devastating criticism of the DBT, Clark! - Pat D 11:09:26 12/28/05 (2)

It was *satire* mon! nt - clarkjohnsen 12:26:15 12/28/05 (1)

Of course, but it's a two-edged sword. - Pat D 13:06:19 12/28/05 (0)

yeah, see BassNut's response ~nt - Feanor 10:46:58 12/28/05 (0)

Thanks, Clark - Feanor 08:51:06 12/28/05 (0)

Re: The DBT that proved all amplifiers sound DIFFERENT - middleground 07:06:32 12/28/05 (3)

Well ... - Feanor 08:45:21 12/28/05 (2)

Yeah, US. No?? Give me a break ~nt - Feanor 16:03:56 12/28/05 (0)

Re: Well ... - middleground 12:38:24 12/28/05 (0)

"On the majority of discs the Phase 400 does sound hard and unpleasantly bright" - Dave Pogue 06:40:22 12/28/05 (3)

Re: "On the majority of discs the Phase 400 does sound hard and unpleasantly bright" - Ozzie 06:52:36 12/28/05 (2)

Re: "On the majority of discs the Phase 400 does sound hard and unpleasantly bright" - DaveInVA 08:04:31 12/28/05 (0)

Re: "On the majority of discs the Phase 400 does sound hard and unpleasantly bright" - Dave Pogue 07:21:36 12/28/05 (0)

Sound Advice's reference speaker for those amp comparisons... - TAFKA Steve 05:46:43 12/28/05 (2)

But note re. Klipschorns ... - Feanor 06:16:00 12/28/05 (1)

Re: But note re. Klipschorns ... - Ozzie 06:59:01 12/28/05 (0)

Re: The DBT that proved all amplifiers sound DIFFERENT - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 05:16:20 12/28/05 (6)

Re: The DBT that proved all amplifiers sound DIFFERENT - morricab 13:37:06 12/28/05 (1)

Re: The DBT that proved all amplifiers sound DIFFERENT - chris.redmond2@bushinternet.com 05:48:37 12/29/05 (0)

I agree about improvements - Feanor 05:37:08 12/28/05 (3)

Re: I agree about improvements - kerr 06:59:57 12/28/05 (2)

Fair, and since you asked ... - Feanor 08:48:37 12/28/05 (1)

I'm good with that - kerr 16:12:04 12/28/05 (0)

Interesting on two fronts - kerr 04:48:19 12/28/05 (22)

Well, y'all movin' right along, here! - Silver Eared John 11:36:47 12/28/05 (5)

And you're perfect for my next question - kerr 12:41:51 12/28/05 (4)

I don't know, really... - Silver Eared John 23:34:36 12/28/05 (3)

Live is 'sighted listening'â€¦ - David Aiken 22:28:45 12/29/05 (1)

I think it goes way beyond that, though... - Silver Eared John 12:43:06 12/31/05 (0)

Agreed and agreed - kerr 04:36:38 12/29/05 (0)

Re: Interesting on two fronts - Dan Banquer 05:12:25 12/28/05 (15)

Re: Interesting on two fronts - jneutron 07:43:55 12/28/05 (10)

Re: I thought Cables had that (dubious) distinction * - Guy 12:27:04 12/28/05 (0)

Re: Interesting on two fronts - Dan Banquer 10:06:11 12/28/05 (8)

Boy, ain't that the truth? - Silver Eared John 11:39:30 12/28/05 (1)

Not totally - kerr 12:33:01 12/28/05 (0)

Re: Interesting on two fronts - jneutron 10:31:11 12/28/05 (5)

Re: Interesting on two fronts - Dan Banquer 11:14:30 12/28/05 (4)

Re: Interesting on two fronts - Jim Austin 19:10:47 12/28/05 (3)

Re: Interesting on two fronts - jneutron 13:21:07 12/29/05 (2)

Re: Interesting on two fronts - Jim Austin 04:37:52 12/30/05 (1)

Re: Interesting on two fronts - jneutron 05:59:23 12/30/05 (0)

DBT isn't an obsure, technical topic anymore - Feanor 06:19:01 12/28/05 (3)

Re: DBT isn't an obsure, technical topic anymore - soulfood 08:33:35 12/28/05 (2)

Sorry to bother you with a few facts ~nt - Feanor 09:06:49 12/28/05 (1)

My opinions are facts. ;^) (nt) - soulfood 10:09:00 12/28/05 (0)

Follow Ups

Richard just got stabbed with his own double-edged sword - kerr 12/29/0508:03:05 12/29/05 (5)

kerr, people are going to accuse me of writing YOUR posts just so I have such an easy target to refute - Richard BassNut Greene 09:06:05 12/29/05 (4)

But don't you see you're shooting down yourself? - kerr 10:06:48 12/29/05 (3)

Comparing a "test" to similar tests in the past three decades is as objective as one can be - Richard BassNut Greene 08:03:03 12/30/05 (2)

But your conclusions are anything but! - kerr 09:46:09 12/30/05 (1)

I questioned the label "DBT" -- and so far it seems that label was misleading - Richard BassNut Greene 10:40:31 12/30/05 (0)