The down side of convenience and reliability

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Topic - Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - Donald North 18:20:28 01/15/08 (233)

WOW! Nice thread! Especially for Sci-Fi lovers...:-).......nt. - Alex Peychev 23:20:12 01/17/08 (2)

There is that aspect. nt - clarkjohnsen 23:36:12 01/17/08 (0)

:) [nt] - Ted Smith 23:21:36 01/17/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - chonburi 20:26:28 01/17/08 (7)

Can you direct us to the studies on that? nt - clarkjohnsen 23:37:08 01/17/08 (2)

RE: Can you direct us to the studies on that? nt - Mudshark 09:10:33 01/20/08 (0)

RE: Start with Wavelength... They say $10,000..nt - chonburi 02:54:58 01/18/08 (0)

In your dreams maybe?.....nt - Alex Peychev 22:43:23 01/17/08 (3)

RE: No, high priced manufacturers nightmare...nt - chonburi 02:59:14 01/18/08 (2)

Oh yes, the grape is always sour when out of reach...:-)....nt. - Alex Peychev 08:33:00 01/18/08 (1)

RE: Oh no, only lemons are always sour .....nt. - chonburi 18:04:33 01/18/08 (0)

The down side of convenience and reliability - Frihed89 01/17/0800:00:27 01/17/08 (2)

RE: The down side of convenience and reliability - Pipeline 14:49:10 01/17/08 (0)

ALL hard drives eventually fail: do backups ~nt - Feanor 08:02:30 01/17/08 (0)

I don't see it yet.. - kuma 19:23:05 01/16/08 (5)

"...but its convenience is hard to beat." And here I had thought that *CDs* were supposed to be so convenient! n - clarkjohnsen 23:13:48 01/16/08 (4)

nah... - kuma 17:40:28 01/17/08 (3)

So buy a record changer; I recommend Garrard. nt - clarkjohnsen 23:20:16 01/17/08 (2)

It won't do it... - kuma 09:09:46 01/18/08 (0)

Yeah but, if you want to listen to an entire album, you'd need two copies nt - vettracer 07:20:07 01/18/08 (0)

There is no sonic benefit - Scrith 13:25:20 01/16/08 (142)

Data and Jitter - audioengr 22:12:31 01/16/08 (71)

RE: Data and Jitter - Scrith 22:52:23 01/16/08 (70)

I think not - audioengr 10:33:54 01/17/08 (56)

RE: I think not - Scrith 13:30:36 01/17/08 (55)

Perhaps by recently you really meant 20 or so years? :) - Ted Smith 14:42:45 01/17/08 (54)

Erm... - Scrith 15:53:42 01/17/08 (53)

RE: Erm... - audioengr 23:09:46 01/17/08 (0)

If you were indeed talking ASRC here - Ted Smith 16:50:24 01/17/08 (1)

Ted's right. (nt) - audioengr 23:10:49 01/17/08 (0)

RE: Erm... - Ted Smith 16:20:33 01/17/08 (49)

Light at the end of the tunnel? - Scrith 18:41:45 01/17/08 (48)

RE: Light at the end of the tunnel? - Ted Smith 19:25:44 01/17/08 (47)

Could we have some discussion of what all this means, sonically? Otherwise... - clarkjohnsen 23:35:29 01/17/08 (38)

OK - Less jitter is good (and a biased thread summary) - Ted Smith 23:51:30 01/17/08 (37)

"The devil is in the details for any system to have superior sonics." All well and good, but... - clarkjohnsen 00:06:38 01/18/08 (36)

Better Sound - audioengr 11:28:34 01/18/08 (34)

What you say about jitter is a truism. Most of us learned that fifteen years ago. - clarkjohnsen 12:46:55 01/18/08 (24)

RE: What you say about jitter is a truism. Most of us learned that fifteen years ago. - audioengr 23:05:12 01/18/08 (7)

What's next? - Scrith 10:56:17 01/19/08 (3)

Already have it - audioengr 12:35:57 01/19/08 (2)

Interesting - Scrith 01:22:44 01/20/08 (1)

Difference - audioengr 11:32:35 01/20/08 (0)

RE: What you say about jitter is a truism. Most of us learned that fifteen years ago. - clarkjohnsen 23:46:00 01/18/08 (2)

RE: What you say about jitter is a truism. Most of us learned that fifteen years ago. - audioengr 12:37:44 01/19/08 (1)

Can you please restate this so I can understand what you are asking?" Easy! - clarkjohnsen 12:57:09 01/20/08 (0)

RE: What you say about jitter is a truism. Most of us learned that fifteen years ago. - audioengr 22:58:02 01/18/08 (15)

OK, now we have a taxonomy of sorts. But still unanswered... - clarkjohnsen 23:41:15 01/18/08 (14)

RE: OK, now we have a taxonomy of sorts. But still unanswered... - Ted Smith 10:31:37 01/19/08 (13)

The "answers" I've read (and I am not alone here) are offered in terms so vague... - clarkjohnsen 11:13:34 01/19/08 (12)

RE: The "answers" I've read (and I am not alone here) are offered in terms so vague... - audioengr 12:43:05 01/19/08 (11)

Good work! Because y'know, if the claims made here for sonic results from jitter reduction ("more control"... - clarkjohnsen 13:46:34 01/20/08 (10)

Okay Clark - audioengr 22:21:15 01/20/08 (2)

"...thingie tweaks that you believe in so strongly." Now, now. - clarkjohnsen 23:25:27 01/20/08 (1)

Touche' - audioengr 11:49:51 01/21/08 (0)

RE: Good work! Because y'know, if the claims made here for sonic results from jitter reduction ("more control"... - Ted Smith 14:37:52 01/20/08 (5)

"I'd written quite a diatribe about your cheap shots, but why bother." Indeed. - clarkjohnsen 22:56:13 01/20/08 (4)

RE: "I'd written quite a diatribe about your cheap shots, but why bother." Indeed. - Ted Smith 23:24:47 01/20/08 (3)

"And to be frank..." Please be! - clarkjohnsen 12:07:37 01/21/08 (2)

RE: "And to be frank..." Please be! - Ted Smith 12:45:43 01/21/08 (1)

"Posters who... get upset when you suggest that listening for oneself is the best answer." Why are they here? - clarkjohnsen 12:51:36 01/21/08 (0)

RE: Good work! Because y'know, if the claims made here for sonic results from jitter reduction ("more control" - Vincent VRS 14:15:41 01/20/08 (0)

RE: Better Sound - Ted Smith 12:06:14 01/18/08 (8)

How does one measure "control" and "tizziness"? I mean, even broadly? nt - clarkjohnsen 11:18:32 01/19/08 (7)

And how does one know they are listening to lower jitter without measuring? nt - Slider 12:36:39 01/19/08 (6)

RE: And how does one know they are listening to lower jitter without measuring? nt - Ted Smith 13:14:18 01/19/08 (5)

So many variables not under control... nt - clarkjohnsen 13:51:22 01/20/08 (1)

And if I were doing experiments I'd do something about that... [nt] - Ted Smith 14:09:14 01/20/08 (0)

That wasn't really the point - Slider 17:28:34 01/19/08 (2)

I agree... - Ted Smith 17:35:14 01/19/08 (1)

"It's really the jitter spectrum that matters." Now you're talking! nt - clarkjohnsen 13:49:04 01/20/08 (0)

RE: "The devil is in the details for any system to have superior sonics." All well and good, but... - Ted Smith 00:59:53 01/18/08 (0)

Some agreement - Scrith 21:30:57 01/17/08 (7)

RE: Some agreement - audioengr 23:22:12 01/17/08 (5)

RE: Some agreement - Ted Smith 00:04:03 01/18/08 (4)

Are we all on the same page ? - SoftwireEngineer 11:33:58 01/18/08 (3)

RE: Are we all on the same page ? - Ted Smith 12:06:43 01/18/08 (2)

RE: Are we all on the same page ? - Scrith 00:04:58 01/19/08 (1)

RE: Are we all on the same page ? - Ted Smith 10:29:06 01/19/08 (0)

RE: Some agreement - Ted Smith 23:03:59 01/17/08 (0)

RE: Data and Jitter - Todd Krieger 00:31:06 01/17/08 (12)

He's not talking about ASRC - Ted Smith 00:46:04 01/17/08 (11)

I thought he was talking about buffering the data in the DAC - SoftwireEngineer 10:51:09 01/17/08 (3)

The key word in my post was "asynchronous" - Scrith 13:26:11 01/17/08 (1)

Re: The key word in my post was "asynchronous" - jcarr 21:39:55 01/17/08 (0)

Nope, I don't think so, but he can speak for himself :) [nt] - Ted Smith 13:11:54 01/17/08 (0)

Yes he is - audioengr 10:35:30 01/17/08 (3)

No, I'm Not - Scrith 13:22:59 01/17/08 (1)

Huh? - audioengr 23:01:46 01/17/08 (0)

? - Ted Smith 13:10:32 01/17/08 (0)

RE: He's not talking about ASRC - Scrith 10:16:40 01/17/08 (2)

Wrong - audioengr 10:36:42 01/17/08 (1)

RE: Wrong - Scrith 13:19:20 01/17/08 (0)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Todd Krieger 19:39:41 01/16/08 (2)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - laznos 22:28:02 01/16/08 (1)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Ki Choi 09:48:30 01/20/08 (0)

Correction: You have no ready explanation, for the sonic benefits most of us hear. - clarkjohnsen 15:14:30 01/16/08 (39)

RE: Correction: You have no ready explanation, for the sonic benefits most of us hear. - Scrith 17:20:35 01/16/08 (38)

"You are having trouble understanding the nature of data." Right! Like... - clarkjohnsen 22:59:38 01/16/08 (37)

RE: "You are having trouble understanding the nature of data." Right! Like... - Scrith 15:56:09 01/17/08 (36)

RE: "You are having trouble understanding the nature of data." Right! Like... - clarkjohnsen 23:18:53 01/17/08 (35)

RE: "You are having trouble understanding the nature of data." Right! Like... - Scrith 00:07:43 01/19/08 (34)

" If you hear differences between the same digital data stored on two different types of media, bravo." LOL! - clarkjohnsen 00:12:36 01/19/08 (33)

CD vs. CD-R - Scrith 10:47:15 01/19/08 (28)

It's jitter - audioengr 12:47:11 01/19/08 (1)

"It makes the best CD copies I have ever heard. Lowest jitter." Hmmm... - clarkjohnsen 22:44:47 01/20/08 (0)

RE: CD vs. CD-R - Ted Smith 12:17:32 01/19/08 (25)

"The problem isn't error free reading of the data." Indeed not. - clarkjohnsen 22:40:12 01/20/08 (20)

So if it's not just jitter, what do you think it is? (nt) - audioengr 11:54:48 01/21/08 (2)

Dunno. You're the audioengr. Remember: - clarkjohnsen 12:20:43 01/21/08 (1)

I dont think so - audioengr 14:25:51 01/21/08 (0)

RE: "The problem isn't error free reading of the data." Indeed not. - Ted Smith 23:44:11 01/20/08 (16)

"There appear to be fewer designers who tackle jitter head on." That, plus... - clarkjohnsen 12:13:45 01/21/08 (15)

RE: "There appear to be fewer designers who tackle jitter head on." That, plus... - Ted Smith 15:18:28 01/21/08 (3)

"The ultimate difference between reading CDs and CDRs is jitter." OK... that's good to know... - clarkjohnsen 16:25:12 01/21/08 (2)

RE: "The ultimate difference between reading CDs and CDRs is jitter." OK... that's good to know... - Ted Smith 17:06:48 01/21/08 (1)

I agree with Ted's assesment 100% - audioengr 19:20:34 01/21/08 (0)

RE: "There appear to be fewer designers who tackle jitter head on." That, plus... - audioengr 14:29:51 01/21/08 (10)

"I know exactly why a re-written disk sounds better." Excellent! - clarkjohnsen 16:32:28 01/21/08 (9)

Piece of cake - audioengr 19:28:57 01/21/08 (1)

All your explanations are "black magic"... - clarkjohnsen 21:36:44 01/21/08 (0)

You are confounding things rather than simplifying - Ted Smith 17:28:05 01/21/08 (6)

No, sir. I was wondering why, if CD players are so great and sometimes cost so much... - clarkjohnsen 17:44:48 01/21/08 (5)

I was attempting to be careful with my attributions to jitter. - Ted Smith 18:28:39 01/21/08 (4)

RE: I was attempting to be careful with my attributions to jitter. - Scab 20:20:10 01/21/08 (3)

RE: I was attempting to be careful with my attributions to jitter. - audioengr 22:21:31 01/21/08 (0)

There are no guarantees :) - Ted Smith 21:56:45 01/21/08 (1)

Thank You for Your Response nt - Scab 09:11:55 01/22/08 (0)

Full Circle! - Scrith 01:54:16 01/20/08 (3)

Strange circle - Ted Smith 15:27:12 01/20/08 (2)

Only as strange as people want to make it :-) - Scrith 10:12:32 01/21/08 (1)

Nah, enjoy your hard disk systems :) - Ted Smith 11:12:17 01/21/08 (0)

RE: " If you hear differences between the same digital data stored on two different types of media, bravo." LOL! - Ted Smith 10:23:54 01/19/08 (3)

The "data", as in the bits that portray the music? I realize... - clarkjohnsen 11:10:18 01/19/08 (2)

RE: The "data", as in the bits that portray the music? I realize... - Ted Smith 11:45:18 01/19/08 (1)

My reference to DAT was more like an exemplum gratia. nt - clarkjohnsen 18:19:45 01/20/08 (0)

Data may be data - audiozorro 15:06:19 01/16/08 (6)

Dont confuse - audioengr 22:15:37 01/16/08 (2)

Correct - audiozorro 08:41:06 01/17/08 (0)

"...but these can be avoided." Not by those who believe in that stuff! nt - clarkjohnsen 23:11:01 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Data may be data - Scrith 17:32:05 01/16/08 (2)

RE: Data may be data - Tom Schuman 10:52:00 01/17/08 (1)

Perhaps you nailed the problem with digital - audiozorro 21:30:42 01/17/08 (0)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Ted Smith 14:29:29 01/16/08 (1)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Donald North 14:33:28 01/16/08 (0)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Donald North 13:50:35 01/16/08 (17)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Ted Smith 14:23:27 01/16/08 (9)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Donald North 14:31:41 01/16/08 (8)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Scrith 14:36:57 01/16/08 (6)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Donald North 14:41:21 01/16/08 (5)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Scrith 14:59:02 01/16/08 (4)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Donald North 16:51:58 01/16/08 (3)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Scrith 17:19:01 01/16/08 (2)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Donald North 17:39:29 01/16/08 (1)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Scrith 19:23:17 01/16/08 (0)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Ted Smith 14:35:33 01/16/08 (0)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Scrith 13:54:49 01/16/08 (6)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - audioengr 22:18:04 01/16/08 (2)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Scrith 23:00:49 01/16/08 (1)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - audioengr 10:31:09 01/17/08 (0)

data are data but ripping cds to hard-drive has more time, so there is a difference. - Norm 14:12:30 01/16/08 (0)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Donald North 14:11:27 01/16/08 (1)

RE: There is no sonic benefit - Ted Smith 14:20:11 01/16/08 (0)

Uh... in the sound? (Just a guess...) But seriously folks -- - clarkjohnsen 12:57:27 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - audioengr 12:25:36 01/16/08 (0)

Jitter By "Variable Latency"...... - Todd Krieger 10:41:20 01/16/08 (7)

Your conclusions are obsolete - Scrith 13:28:50 01/16/08 (2)

RE: Your conclusions are obsolete - Todd Krieger 19:50:20 01/16/08 (1)

RE: Your conclusions are obsolete - Scrith 23:06:51 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Jitter By "Variable Latency"...... - DHT 4 ME 11:50:57 01/16/08 (3)

RE: Jitter By "Variable Latency"...... - maabx 12:03:11 01/16/08 (2)

RE: Jitter By "Variable Latency"...... - DHT 4 ME 12:23:11 01/16/08 (1)

RE: Jitter By "Variable Latency"...... - maabx 15:23:13 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - Tom Schuman 04:03:56 01/16/08 (25)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - Todd Krieger 20:00:23 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - audiozorro 12:58:03 01/16/08 (0)

Bullshit - J.Mac 10:37:09 01/16/08 (19)

RE: Bullshit - Tom Schuman 11:34:16 01/16/08 (18)

RE: Bullshit - SETdude 11:56:38 01/16/08 (2)

i agree with that - Tom Schuman 12:05:54 01/16/08 (1)

RE: i agree with that - SETdude 13:22:51 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Bullshit - maabx 11:45:05 01/16/08 (14)

How about some numbers - Slider 11:56:28 01/16/08 (12)

RE: How about some numbers - maabx 12:14:22 01/16/08 (11)

I almost never see read errors - Slider 12:46:19 01/16/08 (10)

RE: I almost never see read errors - audioengr 11:03:45 01/17/08 (1)

Don't think anyone asked about your Pace-Car reclocker :) - Slider 09:53:57 01/19/08 (0)

RE: I almost never see read errors - maabx 15:30:48 01/16/08 (1)

RE: I almost never see read errors - Slider 18:10:59 01/16/08 (0)

RE: I almost never see read errors - DHT 4 ME 13:53:59 01/16/08 (5)

"The most telling example is the tweeks we see. If it was all immune and perfect then they would not work." - clarkjohnsen 15:21:41 01/16/08 (4)

Bits - audioengr 11:00:16 01/17/08 (1)

You know perfectly well that "Bits is bits" is code language for... - clarkjohnsen 12:18:09 01/17/08 (0)

We were only talking about read errors - Slider 17:33:35 01/16/08 (1)

"I think we all know by now that there is more to music than just data bits." LOL! - clarkjohnsen 23:03:46 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Bullshit - Tom Schuman 11:53:26 01/16/08 (0)

Amen. Thanks - Frihed89 07:36:39 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - terrycym 04:39:45 01/16/08 (1)

The *original* Memory Player does much more than that. Here's some descrip: - clarkjohnsen 12:59:47 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - Dawnrazor 20:33:20 01/15/08 (26)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - maabx 20:52:46 01/15/08 (25)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - Dawnrazor 20:55:26 01/15/08 (24)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - maabx 21:19:10 01/15/08 (23)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - J.Mac 21:23:37 01/15/08 (22)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - Tom Schuman 09:00:49 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - DHT 4 ME 21:56:43 01/15/08 (20)

No-brainer - audioengr 10:49:08 01/17/08 (4)

Thanks! - DHT 4 ME 12:45:03 01/17/08 (3)

RE: Thanks! - audioengr 11:37:25 01/18/08 (2)

RE: Thanks! - DHT 4 ME 12:25:37 01/18/08 (1)

I doubt it. (nt) - audioengr 23:06:47 01/18/08 (0)

Couppla things... - maabx 08:06:48 01/16/08 (2)

RE: Couppla things... - DHT 4 ME 11:30:23 01/16/08 (1)

RE: Couppla things... - maabx 11:51:53 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - maabx 07:35:13 01/16/08 (10)

Well you've obviously never done any measurements here. - Ted Smith 11:53:28 01/16/08 (8)

I saw half a dozen "music servers" at CES, all with different implementation. - clarkjohnsen 13:02:17 01/16/08 (5)

RE: I saw half a dozen "music servers" at CES, all with different implementation. - audioengr 22:20:16 01/16/08 (3)

Steve, I hate to tell you this, but... - clarkjohnsen 23:06:21 01/16/08 (2)

It's a second order effect - audioengr 10:41:48 01/17/08 (1)

Beg to differ. Polarity is *extremely audible* on a good system with simply-miked sources. - clarkjohnsen 12:15:35 01/17/08 (0)

RE: I saw half a dozen "music servers" at CES, all with different implementation. - Mercman 13:59:08 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Well you've obviously never done any measurements here. - maabx 12:06:13 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Well you've obviously never done any measurements here. - SETdude 12:05:47 01/16/08 (0)

Not an *urban* myth - J.Mac 10:40:02 01/16/08 (0)

Yep (nt) - Dawnrazor 06:34:59 01/16/08 (0)

RE: first of all... - mls-stl 19:54:13 01/15/08 (0)

Isn't a matter of how they sound? - Norm 19:23:45 01/15/08 (1)

Oops! I see now you got that in ahead of me... nt - clarkjohnsen 13:03:07 01/16/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - J.Mac 19:16:09 01/15/08 (3)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - Charles Hansen 20:10:25 01/15/08 (2)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - audioengr 10:58:08 01/17/08 (0)

RE: Where's the sonic benefit in hard disk servers? - J.Mac 20:36:40 01/15/08 (0)

Follow Ups

The down side of convenience and reliability - Frihed89 01/17/0800:00:27 01/17/08 (2)

RE: The down side of convenience and reliability - Pipeline 14:49:10 01/17/08 (0)

ALL hard drives eventually fail: do backups ~nt - Feanor 08:02:30 01/17/08 (0)

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