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Re: I didn't know I had a ghostwriter!

"Can you learn a language by simply listening to people talking"

Well other than some basic training the answer is yes you can and it is mainly why the best way to learn a foreign language is to go live in the country where they speak it. You can begin to educate yourself about music simply by reading about different aspects and then listening to relevant cuts of music that illustrate the point. Going to live classical concerts (both orchestral and chamber) will give you insight as to how instruments really sound as well as how they can vary from instrument to instrument. It gives you a feel for their tonal range and dynamic capabilities as well as how they interact with space.

"Live, unamplified music is not the reference for everyone"

Why not?? It is the ONLY true reference for how things should sound. Amplfied concerts have another layer between you and the instruments. Electic instruments can sound however the musician wishes and are therefore not references. I am by no means saying that you should only listen to acoustic music but what I am saying is that it is the only reasonably recorded music that is suitable for judging the sound quality of a system.

"So then please tell me why flat is not good"

Flat in-room response is almost always perceived as being too bright. This has to do with the way different frquencies behave in the room. B&K (microphones) found that the frequency curve that people tend to find most natural is not flat but is instead a smoothly decreasing curve from the bass to the highs. I myself equalize my system so that there is a gentle roll off above 8khz.

However; there is nothing wrong per se with a flat response, your mistake is to assume that the flat response is the most important aspect of a speakers performance. Sure tonal balance is affected by frequency response but as long as it is constant and not too severe it can large be overlooked by the ear/brain. What is much worse is changes in frequency response under dynamic conditions. This stands out and can't be ignored because it is not constant.

"How can a speaker that shows deviations from flat response and is hence adding to the recorded information be accurate?"

Accurate in which domain? Frequency response, Dynamic and thermal compression, distortion, cabinet and driver colorations?? All of these affect the end result for a speaker. A speaker can be totally flat and still sound more colored than one that has +-3db. Why? Well for one the deviations in the non-flat speaker might be in frequency regions where you are less sensitive with your hearing. The flat speaker could have nasty cone breakup and cabinet resonances that grossly color the sound. Also, the flat speaker could be low sensitivity and have one driver that exhibits thermal compression at much input power levels than the other driver thus skewing that perfect flat response during music peaks, thus making it sound shrill or bass heavy. Again, your mistake is assuming flat frequency response tells the whole story when it is far from the whole story.

"What then is accurate in measurement terms? Do you think that speakers that measure flat are sounding bad, implicitly, always?"

I never said this implicitly or explicitly. Flat frequency response is a good goal but should be only one of many to achieve a truly good sounding speaker. If I didn't care at all about FR then I wouldn't have a digital eq in my system. As I stated above B&K found that a sloping curve fit better with people's ideal of what a natural sound should be. I have to admit that when I have equalized this way the sound is quite pleasant. Now I find I like more presence and only roll the top off a bit, which is what should be done in a normal reflective room.


"If measurements are useless, why do scientists measure?"

Again you take my words and try to stretch them to the extreme. I never said they were useless. At the very least they are useful for quality control to make sure that every speaker or amp is the same as the last one. My point is that measurements like FR (given in +-db) specd by the MFG. is not a meaningful number (is that on-axis, off-axis inclusive, aneschoic, in-room etc.) and often the MFG. has been less than honest (as evidenced by Soundstage or STereophile measurements). Same thing with Sensitivity: at what frequency? If the speaker is +-3db then so is the Sensitivity rating. What impedance? A speaker with a nominal 8 ohm rating can drop to 2 ohms or less at some frequencies!! Plus, there are no specs (usually) for distortion, cabinet resonances, thermal compression, cone breakup or a dozen other factors affecting the final sound output. Even if all these things are measured it still doesn't give a very good concept overall if the sound will be good from that speaker or not. It could tell you if it is a real dog but otherwise its not easy to make the correlation.

Same is true with amps and sources.

"As for correlation between sound and measurements, did you read the publications of Toole and Olive"

I have read some of their work but IMO it is too simplistic and the conclusions are not borne out in the products. Does Infinity make the best sound speakers in the world?? Not really. In fact I would say that the older EMIT based ones are often quite superior overall and they did not benefit from such testing. What are they missing? I think they are missing how things like drivers, cabinets, phase relationships all affect listening experience, not in short tests but over long term listening. Small effects might evade detection in high pressure, short term listening tests but they might prove to be a big annoyance with time. A slight metallic sheen, barely perceptible could eventually turn you off to classical music because the strings now sound too "steely".

"Does one positive blind test between amps mean that all amps sound different? "

No, but it does say that amps can sound different and it can be significant.

I will be in Amsterdam this weekend in fact. Send me an email with your contact information. FWIW, I have had measureably accurate speakers at home. I have made them flat (+-1.5 db in-room) with DSP but I now roll off the highs a bit above 8Khz as I stated. Even without the DSP my speakers are +-2 db from 200Hz to 15Khz...in-room, which I think I can say is quite good indeed.




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