In Reply to: The real problem (long) posted by Charles Hansen on June 8, 2008 at 22:31:27:
In his reply below, Pjay says we should separate "real information from spin." But the "real problem" is that a big chunk of the audiophile community dislikes the idea that claims should be verifiable, in the scientific sense. As I've written before (I think in that "Chips for Chumps" article you referred to), abandoning verifiable fact has some serious and negative consequences, but it's pretty much inevitable in a field like this where so much depends on subjective experience.
What I'm getting at is that it's such a phenomenological, and also marketing-driven, field, with every manufacturer claiming that something different matters, that there is no way, in many (maybe the majority) of cases to "separate real information from spin." Often these are sincere beliefs held by designers who have fixated on some aspect of the design: Is it a plastic case that REALLY makes DNM products sound good? Are DeVore speakers good, as JD says, because they're really easy for amplifiers to drive? How important is it for drivers to be used only in their pistonic frequency range? (seems like it would be very important, but it's not that common...). How important is it to use high-tech materials that don't deform for cones? How important is it to use natural materials that DO deform? How important is it to keep circuits simple? How important is it to avoid all global negative feedback? What is fact, what is spin, and what is the unverifiable conviction of a skilled designer? Even if a designer designs something that sounds wonderful, based on a certain philosophy, the philosophy and the good sound may or may not be connected. Perhaps it's just luck, and a good ear.
Of course, some claims are obvious marketing B.S., as anyone with a shred of technical knowledge can verify. The "Chips for Chumps" issue Charles mentioned is a great illustration of just how hard it can be, in this world, to distinguish fact from hype. Charles criticized me for developing a technical opinion without listening, but as far as I know he never tried to defend any of the product's technical claims, or to say it actually affected the sound. But others--including at least one well-known designer of electronics (and several reviewers)--has (have) said the chip works.
And what about those Bybee filters? I've never listened to them, I can say with absolute conviction--as a person trained in condensed matter physics--that materials that have superconducting properties at lower temperatures have no special properties at room temperature and above, the range where these things operate. Yet some people swear by them, and one widely respected designer incorporates them into his amplifiers, or used to. Do they improve the sound? I have no idea. But if they do, it has nothing to do with the claims the manufacturer makes (or made a while ago; I haven't checked lately). Memory player? Ditto.
One of the things I love about audio is that it's rarely clear-cut. How could it be? You can't measure experience. You can't--at least not yet--objectify the emotional content of music.
There's a continuum between utter nonsense and reliably verifiable fact. There are many examples of both extremes in audio, but the most interesting part is right in the unverifiable middle.
Jim
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Follow Ups
- RE: The real problem (long) - Jim Austin 06/9/0808:48:33 06/9/08 (86)
- RE: The real problem (long) - john curl 09:26:25 06/13/08 (0)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Charles Hansen 09:22:14 06/9/08 (84)
- Now, why would you go say a thing like that? - geoffkait 06:43:37 06/10/08 (29)
- RE: Now, why would you go say a thing like that? - Charles Hansen 07:57:12 06/10/08 (28)
- RE: Now, why would you go say a thing like that? - geoffkait 08:17:53 06/10/08 (27)
- Ummm, what's an artificial atom? - Bob Rex 09:50:00 06/13/08 (1)
- RE: Ummm, what's an artificial atom? - geoffkait 10:25:52 06/13/08 (0)
- RE: Now, why would you go say a thing like that? - JNS 18:46:46 06/10/08 (9)
- RE: Now, why would you go say a thing like that? - geoffkait 04:19:28 06/11/08 (8)
- Can you combine the IC with the telphone tweak ? - Pinkus 11:38:08 06/11/08 (6)
- What happens if I put the Intelligent Chip under my wife's pillow? nt - Pjay 13:54:47 06/11/08 (4)
- She sounds a lot better.... - Pinkus 19:30:03 06/11/08 (1)
- Or at least different. (nt) - Jim Austin 06:54:37 06/12/08 (0)
- Her fidelity is improved. :-) nt - Jim Austin 18:23:43 06/11/08 (1)
- Good one! [nt] - Charles Hansen 21:03:29 06/11/08 (0)
- Hmmmm... Perhaps - bjh 11:49:37 06/11/08 (0)
- Graceful response to sarcasm. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:51:04 06/11/08 (0)
- RE: Now, why would you go say a thing like that? - Charles Hansen 10:28:34 06/10/08 (14)
- RE: Now, why would you go say a thing like that? - geoffkait 10:54:53 06/10/08 (13)
- Oh, come on... - J. Potis 11:16:42 06/10/08 (12)
- RE: Oh, come on... - geoffkait 11:33:55 06/10/08 (5)
- RE: Oh, come on... - morricab 08:01:48 06/20/08 (3)
- RE: Oh, come on... - geoffkait 08:58:51 06/20/08 (2)
- RE: Oh, come on... - morricab 04:28:33 06/23/08 (1)
- RE: Oh, come on... - geoffkait 06:51:25 06/23/08 (0)
- RE: Oh, come on... - J. Potis 11:49:47 06/10/08 (0)
- Clever Little Clock, Clever Lil Watch...... - Pinkus 11:30:02 06/10/08 (5)
- RE: Clever Little Clock, Clever Lil Watch...... - J. Potis 11:36:02 06/10/08 (4)
- RE: Clever Little Clock, Clever Lil Watch...... - geoffkait 11:46:14 06/10/08 (3)
- "I've never criticized anyone for being skeptical." - J. Potis 11:56:48 06/10/08 (2)
- RE: "I've never criticized anyone for being skeptical." - geoffkait 12:26:04 06/10/08 (1)
- RE: "I've never criticized anyone for being skeptical." - J. Potis 12:30:11 06/10/08 (0)
- RE: The real problem (long) - das@soundstage.com 12:19:45 06/9/08 (52)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Charles Hansen 18:56:52 06/9/08 (51)
- "I defy anybody to point out even one single design feature of any Magico product that is actually new." - bjh 11:24:01 06/11/08 (7)
- Re: Cone material - Charles Hansen 20:44:30 06/12/08 (6)
- Well then ... - bjh 07:26:59 06/13/08 (5)
- RE: Well then ... - Charles Hansen 20:07:20 06/14/08 (4)
- What about the leak sandwich! - klackto 19:13:47 06/18/08 (3)
- RE: What about the leak sandwich! - Charles Hansen 22:15:47 06/18/08 (2)
- RE: What about the leak sandwich! - klackto 18:48:24 06/20/08 (1)
- I found some pics and other info - Charles Hansen 19:59:56 06/20/08 (0)
- yep...that interview was a head scratcher - jim.spainhour 19:07:55 06/10/08 (0)
- RE: The real problem (long) - das@soundstage.com 19:53:37 06/9/08 (41)
- "[Wolf] seemed like a friendly, down-to-earth guy." My impression as well. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:07:37 06/10/08 (0)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Charles Hansen 20:00:22 06/9/08 (39)
- RE: The real problem (long) - das@soundstage.com 05:42:36 06/10/08 (38)
- Thanks for the interesting disquisition. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:11:59 06/10/08 (0)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Charles Hansen 08:07:54 06/10/08 (34)
- RE: The real problem (long) - das@soundstage.com 09:30:54 06/10/08 (33)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Charles Hansen 10:30:53 06/10/08 (32)
- RE: The real problem (long) - das@soundstage.com 11:02:01 06/10/08 (31)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Charles Hansen 11:18:19 06/10/08 (30)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Belgarchi 17:41:26 06/18/08 (0)
- RE: The real problem (long) - DanHaan 23:04:43 06/14/08 (6)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Charles Hansen 10:49:08 06/15/08 (4)
- RE: The real problem (long) - DanHaan 11:45:45 06/15/08 (3)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Charles Hansen 12:16:30 06/15/08 (2)
- RE: The real problem (long) - DanHaan 15:48:04 06/15/08 (1)
- RE: The real problem (long) - Charles Hansen 17:13:04 06/15/08 (0)
- Ahem... - Jim Smith 09:56:40 06/15/08 (0)
- RE: The real problem (long) - das@soundstage.com 13:39:53 06/10/08 (21)
- RE: Perhaps there's an agenda I'm unaware of - Charles Hansen 17:49:27 06/10/08 (20)
- RE: Perhaps there's an agenda I'm unaware of - das@soundstage.com 18:40:00 06/10/08 (19)
- Why twist my words? - Charles Hansen 00:15:53 06/11/08 (12)
- RE: Why twist my words? - DanHaan 17:49:03 06/12/08 (10)
- RE: Why twist my words? - Charles Hansen 20:10:02 06/12/08 (9)
- RE: Why twist my words? - DanHaan 00:02:23 06/13/08 (8)
- RE: Why twist my words? - seas 18:44:47 06/14/08 (7)
- RE: Why twist my words? - Charles Hansen 20:12:50 06/14/08 (6)
- RE: Why twist my words? - DanHaan 23:00:49 06/14/08 (5)
- RE: Why twist my words? - jim.spainhour 09:09:31 06/15/08 (0)
- RE: Why twist my words? - seas 06:43:38 06/15/08 (3)
- RE: Why twist my words? - DanHaan 08:34:26 06/15/08 (2)
- RE: Why twist my words? - Charles Hansen 10:51:06 06/15/08 (0)
- RE: Why twist my words? - seas 09:01:00 06/15/08 (0)
- RE: Why twist my words? - das@soundstage.com 05:05:09 06/11/08 (0)
- RE: Perhaps there's an agenda I'm unaware of - JNS 22:48:21 06/10/08 (5)
- "My guess is that Magico is simply getting into the pockets of Charlie's friends." Hmmm... - clarkjohnsen 08:47:22 06/11/08 (3)
- RE: "My guess is that Magico is simply getting into the pockets of Charlie's friends." Hmmm... - JNS 14:21:44 06/11/08 (1)
- "How about staying on point and contributing something to this topic." Thank you for that. - clarkjohnsen 07:35:25 06/12/08 (0)
- RE: "My guess is that Magico is simply getting into the pockets of Charlie's friends." Hmmm... - bjh 08:59:49 06/11/08 (0)
- RE: Perhaps there's an agenda I'm unaware of - das@soundstage.com 06:33:57 06/11/08 (0)
- So how come we never hear about such things ? - Pinkus 07:48:56 06/10/08 (1)
- RE: So how come we never hear about such things ? - das@soundstage.com 09:32:44 06/10/08 (0)
- Are you referring to the Alon Wolf interview ? - Pinkus 11:29:44 06/9/08 (0)