In Reply to: Re: Lack of correlation between measurements and listening posted by KlausR. on May 11, 2006 at 00:08:10:
"The measurements MUST be performed under standardized conditions otherwise they are meaningless. Because if you include the room in the measurements every room will generate a different result.""Since rooms do interact with speakers the speaker designer has no choice but to use anechoic conditions for measuring during the design stage. Of course when placed in a fully furnished room the result will be different (and unpredictable) but it's at that point that placement of speakers,"
Not only is this proof that the reviews are almost worthless but that most audio designers today in general and loudspeaker designers in particular are tinkerers and not engineers. And not only are they merely tinkerers, but not very insightful ones at that. If cars were only designed to perform and be tested on a standard test track, there would be no reason to ever develop anti lock brakes or four wheel drive. On a test track, these are of no value, it's only when you get them into the real world that they prove their sometimes life saving value. NOBODY listens to loudspeakers in an anechoic chamber and NOBODY listens to recordings made under precise controlled laboratory conditions. Loudspeakers are NOT designed to compensate for the real rooms they will be installed in insofar as their acoustics are different from anechoic chambers and different from each other and sound systems are NOT designed anymore to compensate for differences in the way recordings are made. Amplifiers and speakers are only to a limited degree designed to compensate for how they will interact with each other. Therefore, equipment which tests nearly identically in standard anechoic or laboratory bench test conditions can and do perform entirely differently at home and by reading the test reports, the buyer has no way to predict what the differences will be or if they are acceptable. We know that an 8 watt amplifier will not drive an AR3 playing organ pedal notes to room shaking levels and that's about as far as it goes.
At the very least for loudspeakers, were the tests more complete and the science better developed, we would get some idea of the correlation. But it is far easier to just throw two or three drivers in a box with a handful of electonic parts to the interminably same paradymes and call it a breakthrough, than it is to drag that box first into a lab, measure everything about it, and then drag it into a lot of rooms, place them in different positions, and measure them each time all over again trying to gain insight into the differences, and harder yet to provide useful means the user can benefit from to optimize them and mitigate or entirely negate the differences. And that's what speaker manufacturers do. So poorly conceived, that for many manufacturers, even two units of the same model under the same conditions can sound different. And to think that people actually devour these reviews and then spend big money to play this Russian roulette hit or miss game. Small wonder the buyers in this market have dwindled to such a small niche who endlessly swap equipment at great expense while the kind of people who shopped and bought expensive sound systems a generation or two ago have lost any incentive to do the same today. I know I have, and after last weekend in Piscataway, now more than ever.
Interesting that official dogma now accepts digital equalizers for "room correction." It's one small concession to the reality of the limitations of the art. Among the cultists, the same mantras and shiboleths still hold...analog good, digital bad...no equaliziaton or tone controls good, equalization bad...vinyl records good, cds bad...tubes good, transistors bad...moving coil cartridges good, moving magnet cartridges bad...exotic wires good, Radio Shack/Home Depot wires bad....etc.
This will probably wind up in Whiner's Woad. Negativity is a point of view not favored here...especially if their is any truth in it.
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Follow Ups
- Criticizing the critics...and the designers - Soundmind 05/11/0604:34:31 05/11/06 (71)
- NOBODY listens to loudspeakers in an anechoic chamber - KlausR. 05:37:24 05/11/06 (67)
- Re: NOBODY listens to loudspeakers in an anechoic chamber - Soundmind 06:10:53 05/11/06 (66)
- Re: Polar response - KlausR. 09:12:58 05/11/06 (5)
- Re: Polar response - Soundmind 09:28:06 05/11/06 (4)
- You're welcome but... - KlausR. 09:34:17 05/11/06 (3)
- Re: You're welcome but... - Soundmind 09:47:11 05/11/06 (2)
- Polar response again - KlausR. 10:59:04 05/11/06 (1)
- Re: Polar response again - Soundmind 11:44:13 05/11/06 (0)
- Question - John Atkinson 06:41:16 05/11/06 (59)
- I answered your question, now here's one for you - Soundmind 10:15:50 05/11/06 (34)
- No - John Atkinson 12:02:54 05/11/06 (0)
- Yes, a 5-band graphic equalizer, isn't it? Did you say it was 70's vintage? (sorry, but you've no system listed). nt - bjh 10:53:23 05/11/06 (32)
- Re: Yes, a 5-band graphic equalizer, isn't it? Did you say it was 70's vintage? (sorry, but you've no system listed). nt - Soundmind 13:12:15 05/11/06 (31)
- What preamp has a built-in 5-band equalizer? -t - Bruce Kendall 15:47:16 05/11/06 (27)
- A 1974 Harman-Kardon Citation 11 - E-Stat 16:02:53 05/11/06 (26)
- Just wondering. - Bruce Kendall 18:31:56 05/11/06 (0)
- Re: A 1974 Harman-Kardon Citation 11 - Soundmind 17:34:31 05/11/06 (24)
- I'm shocked!! - E-Stat 17:40:30 05/11/06 (23)
- Re: I'm shocked!! - Soundmind 17:52:54 05/11/06 (22)
- 2 years??!! - Bruce from DC 07:55:18 05/12/06 (12)
- Re: 2 years??!! - Soundmind 08:58:41 05/12/06 (11)
- Re: "measures flat but doesn't sound flat" - Bruce from DC 15:12:02 05/12/06 (1)
- Reproducing sound to be perceived as identical to something else is always subjective, that's what perception means - Soundmind 16:03:52 05/12/06 (0)
- Since when did Behringer become an audiophile firm? - E-Stat 14:59:29 05/12/06 (8)
- What do you mean "WE" kimosabe? - Soundmind 16:13:26 05/12/06 (7)
- Are you kidding? - E-Stat 16:27:15 05/12/06 (6)
- Maybe I read your post wrong, looks like you fell off the deep end - Soundmind 17:10:20 05/12/06 (5)
- You said you didn't like how they calculated "flat" and blamed audiophiles - E-Stat 17:19:46 05/12/06 (4)
- Re: You said you didn't like how they calculated "flat" and blamed audiophiles - Soundmind 17:46:11 05/12/06 (3)
- You left out one detail - E-Stat 18:48:02 05/12/06 (2)
- Re: You left out one detail - Soundmind 19:27:23 05/12/06 (1)
- Yeah, just think how much gear that could have - bjh 14:08:14 05/13/06 (0)
- Ok, now I'm relieved - E-Stat 18:23:11 05/11/06 (8)
- Re: Ok, now I'm relieved - Soundmind 18:54:00 05/11/06 (7)
- Wow! I guess amongst graphic equalizer buffs you must be The Man! :) nt - bjh 19:21:31 05/11/06 (6)
- I find them a useful and powerful tool when properly used - Soundmind 23:38:54 05/11/06 (5)
- What audiophiles also tend to forget is... - KlausR. 08:51:08 05/12/06 (4)
- Re: What audiophiles also tend to forget is... - Soundmind 09:03:33 05/12/06 (3)
- Re: What audiophiles also tend to forget is... - Pat D 17:19:00 05/12/06 (2)
- Another funny point - Soundmind 18:19:49 05/12/06 (1)
- Have to wear the boots again with this one... - E-Stat 18:55:33 05/12/06 (0)
- Did you dispense with the BSR 10 band units? - E-Stat 13:38:38 05/11/06 (2)
- Eureka! I believe you've uncovered a means to clear the Dark Gloomy Cloud hanging over this forum, ... - bjh 13:46:32 05/11/06 (1)
- As an "irrational audiophile", I will likely surprise the hell out of SM - E-Stat 14:33:52 05/11/06 (0)
- Re: Question - RGA 07:36:19 05/11/06 (3)
- "I'm sure he'd be less hostile in person." One would hope. However... - clarkjohnsen 08:47:23 05/11/06 (0)
- "...I think a manufacturer should offer him a job" - bjh 08:35:36 05/11/06 (1)
- I was being genuine... - RGA 08:54:55 05/12/06 (0)
- Re: Question - Soundmind 07:17:13 05/11/06 (19)
- Re: Question - hexenboden 10:48:09 05/11/06 (0)
- Re: Question - Bruce from DC 10:15:08 05/11/06 (0)
- I pick "C" - Pjay 08:36:39 05/11/06 (16)
- Re: I pick "C" - Soundmind 09:12:40 05/11/06 (6)
- Re: I pick "C" - Pjay 11:30:16 05/11/06 (0)
- Have to agree - kerr 10:28:38 05/11/06 (1)
- Re: Have to agree - Soundmind 11:55:47 05/11/06 (0)
- "color television" huh? Tell me, when was the last time you attempted to "walk into" some scene on your TV? nt - bjh 10:07:45 05/11/06 (2)
- Yeah, if he thinks color television problems have been "solved," - Dave Pogue 11:01:16 05/11/06 (0)
- ps. Have you ever noticed that when you walk behind your TV set - bjh 10:44:44 05/11/06 (0)
- Allow me to add a point? - KlausR. 09:00:57 05/11/06 (8)
- Re: Allow me to add a point? - Soundmind 09:21:23 05/11/06 (7)
- Re: And what do you suppose would happen if actual musicians performed in your listening room? - KlausR. 09:40:47 05/11/06 (6)
- Re: And what do you suppose would happen if actual musicians performed in your listening room? - Soundmind 09:51:36 05/11/06 (5)
- Back to mono? (nt) - KlausR. 10:48:30 05/11/06 (4)
- Re: Back to mono? (nt) - Soundmind 11:46:09 05/11/06 (3)
- Use two dozen of my 'stats - E-Stat 14:40:01 05/11/06 (2)
- you won't get much privacy behind those dressing screens. - Soundmind 17:30:39 05/11/06 (1)
- The best doesn't come cheaply -t - E-Stat 18:16:21 05/11/06 (0)
- I beg to disagree - hexenboden 05:04:25 05/11/06 (2)
- Re: I beg to disagree - Soundmind 05:25:19 05/11/06 (1)
- LOL - hexenboden 11:04:59 05/11/06 (0)