Without those experts, charts and numbers... - KlausR.

Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - M. Fremer on "Digital disaster", suggestion to Stereophile - KlausR. 23:55:29 11/11/05 (218)

Re: M. Fremer on "Digital disaster", suggestion to Stereophile - GregTheAudiophile 01:44:11 11/20/05 (0)

Re: Such the comedian! - eso 11:48:20 11/18/05 (13)

A puzzle - John Atkinson 15:53:29 11/18/05 (12)

human nature... - haugenmarka@hotmail.com 09:00:09 11/22/05 (0)

JA,, you are disappointing me! - KlausR. 22:55:02 11/18/05 (9)

Re: JA,, you are disappointing me! - Jim Tavegia 13:09:46 11/19/05 (1)

Sony - KlausR. 00:21:12 11/21/05 (0)

Re: Klaus, you are contradicting yourself! - eso 07:32:45 11/19/05 (6)

I agree... - haugenmarka@hotmail.com 15:01:00 11/22/05 (0)

Re: Klaus, you are contradicting yourself! No, I don't. - KlausR. 22:38:14 11/19/05 (4)

Re: Klaus, you ARE contradicting yourself... - eso 08:10:59 11/20/05 (3)

Squirmy ain't he? LOL nt - bjh 07:57:46 11/21/05 (0)

I don't see any contradiction here... - Wellfed 08:43:38 11/20/05 (1)

Re: I don't see any clarification one way or the other... nt - eso 10:52:39 11/20/05 (0)

Indeed.... - Bung 18:40:44 11/18/05 (0)

Digital is like fingernails on a chackboard, I will keep with analog if I want to listen to music and enjoy it.... - haugenmarka@hotmail.com 09:13:25 11/18/05 (7)

I'm reading those anti-digital rants and I think by myself... - KlausR. 07:29:22 11/19/05 (6)

Re: I'm reading those anti-digital rants and I think by myself... - john curl 21:03:42 11/19/05 (5)

And what does that prove? - KlausR. 23:00:55 11/19/05 (4)

it's that bad... - haugenmarka@hotmail.com 15:05:07 11/21/05 (2)

Re: I bought a CDP in 1984... - theaudiohobby 17:45:51 11/24/05 (1)

mistake ... 1994... - haugenmarka@hotmail.com 12:59:06 11/25/05 (0)

If you can't be with the one you love... - Wellfed 11:34:20 11/20/05 (0)

Klaus, are you sitting down? Good. I have to tell you something very scary. - markrohr 09:28:52 11/17/05 (39)

Re: Klaus, are you sitting down? Good. I have to tell you something very scary. - theaudiohobby 20:14:15 11/17/05 (37)

Re: Klaus, are you sitting down? Good. I have to tell you something very scary. - markrohr 10:51:33 11/18/05 (32)

Re: Klaus, are you sitting down? Good. I have to tell you something very scary. - theaudiohobby 13:31:17 11/19/05 (31)

Fine, I guess I'll have to find an o-scope photo that shows - markrohr 16:53:35 11/20/05 (30)

Your crystal ball must be the same model as.... - KlausR. 00:02:29 11/21/05 (27)

dynamic range... - haugenmarka@hotmail.com 15:04:59 11/22/05 (2)

Re: dynamic range... - theaudiohobby 02:24:51 11/23/05 (0)

Re: dynamic range... - KlausR. 23:59:12 11/22/05 (0)

Re: Your crystal ball must be the same model as.... - morricab 06:54:19 11/21/05 (20)

Real life - KlausR. 21:33:20 11/21/05 (18)

Re: Real life - morricab 01:32:16 11/22/05 (17)

Re: Real life - KlausR. 03:02:31 11/22/05 (10)

Re: Real life - morricab 07:44:32 11/22/05 (9)

Re: Real life - KlausR. 00:21:32 11/23/05 (0)

"If [the speakers] measure flat to 20Khz it is likely too bright sounding." --Oh, man, truer words were never spoken! nt - markrohr 09:00:21 11/22/05 (7)

Re: "If [the speakers] measure flat to 20Khz it is likely too bright sounding." --Oh, man, truer words were never spoken - morricab 00:15:45 11/23/05 (6)

Yup. nt - markrohr 03:09:27 11/23/05 (0)

Flat anechoic response... - KlausR. 02:05:52 11/23/05 (4)

Re: Flat anechoic response... - morricab 07:35:31 11/23/05 (3)

As JGH once said, "Down with Flat!" ;-) nt - markrohr 10:43:19 11/23/05 (2)

What else did JGH say? - KlausR. 00:18:06 11/25/05 (1)

"Did you ever read Floyd Toole's AES papers[?]" Yes, I have. - markrohr 05:08:26 11/25/05 (0)

Re: Real life - theaudiohobby 02:25:17 11/22/05 (5)

Re: Real life - morricab 07:31:23 11/22/05 (4)

Re: Real life - theaudiohobby 02:32:07 11/23/05 (3)

Re: Real life - morricab 07:55:11 11/23/05 (2)

Re: Real life - theaudiohobby 17:14:14 11/23/05 (1)

Re: Real life - morricab 05:14:54 11/24/05 (0)

Thanks for saying it better than I could. nt - markrohr 12:37:09 11/21/05 (0)

"I suggest that you listen to real good ones." - markrohr 04:25:07 11/21/05 (2)

Re: "I suggest that you listen to real good ones." - theaudiohobby 04:59:00 11/21/05 (1)

"those limits are within the capability of the modern audio technology." - markrohr 06:50:32 11/21/05 (0)

Re: Nope just decent substantive evidence - theaudiohobby 17:50:30 11/20/05 (1)

If you're already there, congratulations. Have fun! nt - markrohr 04:06:52 11/21/05 (0)

Good question - KlausR. 21:36:13 11/17/05 (3)

Re: Good question - theaudiohobby 01:27:30 11/19/05 (0)

Re: Good question - theaudiohobby 10:53:55 11/18/05 (1)

Believing is hearing! - KlausR. 06:39:56 11/19/05 (0)

Cicadas produce 106dB... - csero 12:32:05 11/17/05 (0)

In the interest of fair and balanced reporting, I would like both vinyl and polycarbonate media to cease production. - TAFKA Steve 15:04:27 11/16/05 (3)

Wow, I ran out at almost exactly the same point - DAT 10:48:25 11/18/05 (0)

Only if the hard drive's in Mexico (or somewhere NOT in our homes! - Muzikmike 08:46:57 11/18/05 (1)

nightmare just thinking about it! - haugenmarka@hotmail.com 09:16:55 11/18/05 (0)

Re: M. Fremer on "Digital disaster", suggestion to Stereophile - Don T 06:38:49 11/16/05 (3)

My experience to date ... - bjh 08:29:30 11/16/05 (2)

Well gosh that's nice to hear! - Don T 07:07:41 11/18/05 (1)

Poor little huffy puffy Donny, always good for a cheap laugh though. LOL nt - bjh 07:29:00 11/21/05 (0)

Here's the Bottom Line - Myles B. Astor 19:50:02 11/15/05 (10)

agree... - haugenmarka@hotmail.com 09:18:52 11/18/05 (0)

Re: Here's the Bottom Line - john curl 07:56:49 11/18/05 (0)

Nice to hear from you again, Myles...(nt) - mkuller 14:34:44 11/17/05 (1)

Thanks :) (nt) - Myles B. Astor 19:12:35 11/17/05 (0)

CDs all day long - KlausR. 05:33:16 11/16/05 (5)

Reading is no substitute for experience. - Al Sekela 15:53:53 11/16/05 (0)

Re: "what does my comment prove?" - Bruce from DC 06:24:26 11/16/05 (3)

What you can't post - KlausR. 06:36:25 11/16/05 (2)

Do you know what the "B" beside his moniker means? (nt) - E-Stat 15:53:44 11/17/05 (0)

hypocrite - robert young 01:31:00 11/17/05 (0)

Alrighty then, that's that! Next up we have tubes vs. solid state, - bwkendall 11:56:55 11/15/05 (1)

answer-TUBES and SURROUND done conservatively - hifitommy 21:26:56 11/15/05 (1)

After reading this entire thread (so far) ... - Dave Pogue 04:17:14 11/15/05 (14)

"We may also enjoy digital . . . without preferring it." ----nicely put! nt - markrohr 12:15:35 11/16/05 (0)

Read my lips, Brutus: You. Too. Can't. Read! - KlausR. 05:40:12 11/15/05 (12)

No, I read you just fine - Dave Pogue 06:05:39 11/15/05 (11)

Because polycarbonatophiles do care... - KlausR. 06:23:02 11/15/05 (10)

Why this endless bitter debate? - rbolaw 13:24:40 11/15/05 (0)

What reality? - mt10425 09:46:02 11/15/05 (0)

Re: "Vinyl was the format of the 50+" - Rob Doorack 09:28:12 11/15/05 (6)

NOT over 50 at all.... - haugenmarka@hotmail.com 09:30:28 11/18/05 (0)

2004 sales figures in USA - KlausR. 01:28:31 11/16/05 (4)

What does that have to do with your claim that vinyl is for "50+" only? - Rob Doorack 05:55:42 11/16/05 (0)

Questionable figures - Dave Pogue 04:44:45 11/16/05 (2)

Those numbers are generally calculated - bwkendall 13:50:17 11/17/05 (0)

Re: Questionable figures - mt10425 05:39:47 11/16/05 (0)

Okay, so you're already making the primary point about vinyl - Dave Pogue 06:39:18 11/15/05 (0)

now there's a new topic- vinyl vs. digital... - tunenut 22:44:46 11/14/05 (2)

Re: now there's a new topic- vinyl vs. digital... - regmac 06:42:17 11/15/05 (1)

actually I just read an article about "Intelligent Falling" - tunenut 18:07:30 11/15/05 (0)

Ain't it simply amazing ... - bjh 16:13:05 11/13/05 (5)

Denon vs AT = apples vs oranges - KlausR. 01:39:27 11/15/05 (3)

It's a case of the proof being in the pudding, and BTW I never said one was 'better' than the other! Learn to read! nt - bjh 08:49:52 11/15/05 (2)

You said "inferior", didn't you? - KlausR. 21:51:56 11/15/05 (1)

Wow! you are incredibly sloppy ... - bjh 08:43:56 11/16/05 (0)

Re: Ain't it simply amazing ... - thetubeguy1954 07:57:13 11/14/05 (0)

Re: AES? Geez, you mean... - geoffkait 07:41:10 11/13/05 (61)

Did you ever read one of these papers? - KlausR. 08:24:31 11/13/05 (60)

Re: And furthermore... - geoffkait 10:26:38 11/13/05 (2)

Re: And furthermore... - regmac 06:54:27 11/15/05 (1)

Re: "Bemoaning the deplorable sound at CES venues" - geoffkait 07:31:15 11/15/05 (0)

you need to lighten up - robert young 08:35:31 11/13/05 (56)

Without those experts, charts and numbers... - KlausR. 11/13/0508:55:04 11/13/05 (55)

Re: Without those experts, charts and numbers... - morricab 08:25:36 11/14/05 (39)

Re: Without those experts, charts and numbers... - KlausR. 09:22:02 11/14/05 (38)

The usual assumption - E-Stat 12:21:02 11/14/05 (37)

Re: The usual assumption - KlausR. 01:21:46 11/15/05 (36)

Seriously - E-Stat 04:09:59 11/15/05 (35)

Re: Seriously - KlausR. 06:41:15 11/15/05 (34)

Re: Seriously - morricab 10:48:25 11/15/05 (13)

Musical and others tastes - KlausR. 23:49:46 11/15/05 (12)

Re: Musical and others tastes - morricab 01:36:12 11/17/05 (4)

Re: Musical and others tastes - KlausR. 02:20:13 11/17/05 (3)

Re: Musical and others tastes - morricab 07:33:31 11/17/05 (2)

Regarding the late, great Michael Hedges - E-Stat 16:48:24 11/17/05 (1)

Re: Regarding the late, great Michael Hedges - morricab 05:47:49 11/18/05 (0)

Let's see, you don't like classical, music, jazz, or blues - Dave Pogue 04:56:30 11/16/05 (1)

Of course I want them to accept my views! - KlausR. 05:22:21 11/16/05 (0)

Re: Musical and others tastes - Amerigo 01:33:55 11/16/05 (4)

German audio mags - KlausR. 05:16:37 11/16/05 (3)

Re: German audio mags - Amerigo 00:01:49 11/17/05 (2)

Surfing - KlausR. 22:50:01 11/19/05 (1)

Re: Surfing - morricab 07:01:01 11/21/05 (0)

Calibration. - markrohr 09:55:42 11/15/05 (0)

Where do I start from such a response? - E-Stat 09:14:08 11/15/05 (16)

Re: Where do I start from such a response? - KlausR. 22:03:20 11/15/05 (8)

Continue to miss the points - E-Stat 04:41:21 11/16/05 (7)

You shall not judge another person's taste... - KlausR. 05:30:53 11/16/05 (6)

Re: You shall not judge another person's taste... - morricab 02:01:00 11/17/05 (3)

Re: You shall not judge another person's taste... - KlausR. 06:53:53 11/17/05 (2)

Re: You shall not judge another person's taste... - morricab 07:11:46 11/17/05 (1)

"I have an SPL meter and I use it, Klaus." - markrohr 09:13:07 11/17/05 (0)

Dynamic range - E-Stat 05:41:07 11/16/05 (1)

You may shake yor head as long as you want... - KlausR. 06:21:43 11/16/05 (0)

Live drum kits - markrohr 09:57:54 11/15/05 (6)

Excellent - E-Stat 10:39:19 11/15/05 (5)

More than that . . . - markrohr 11:35:45 11/15/05 (4)

Re: More than that . . . - morricab 02:05:33 11/17/05 (0)

Re: More than that . . . - theaudiohobby 06:44:41 11/16/05 (0)

Agreed on all points - E-Stat 11:56:12 11/15/05 (1)

Re: Agreed on all points - morricab 02:07:24 11/17/05 (0)

"I don't like classical music." There may be the whole problem. - clarkjohnsen 08:10:58 11/15/05 (1)

That's rubbish! - KlausR. 23:59:22 11/15/05 (0)

I disagree... - robert young 09:26:24 11/13/05 (14)

Well said. Bravo! nt - clarkjohnsen 08:12:18 11/15/05 (0)

Why is it so difficult... - KlausR. 00:03:46 11/14/05 (12)

audio is art directed engineering: unless you think it all sounds the same - Sordidman 11:17:41 11/15/05 (2)

Unless proven otherwise, yes, it all sounds the same - KlausR. 00:55:35 11/16/05 (1)

Please: either go out and get some experience, or go Troll over at Audio Circle -t - Sordidman 07:05:13 11/16/05 (0)

Re: Why is it so difficult... - Tom Schuman 07:38:38 11/14/05 (2)

Go listen to the Jolida JD100 tube CD player and say that (nt) - Jim Tavegia 16:14:25 11/17/05 (1)

I said some material... - Tom Schuman 09:55:03 11/18/05 (0)

Maybe because... - robert young 03:24:09 11/14/05 (5)

"It is the work of inventors with ears..." Yes indeed: Versed in the Art, as they say. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:15:45 11/15/05 (0)

We are getting further and further away from the initial message! - KlausR. 05:07:02 11/14/05 (3)

Not really Klaus. - robert young 05:14:02 11/14/05 (2)

Re: Not really Klaus. - KlausR. 05:39:08 11/14/05 (1)

hoisted by your own petard - robert young 05:59:03 11/14/05 (0)

Re: M. Fremer on "Digital disaster", suggestion to Stereophile - Jim Tavegia 05:45:03 11/13/05 (24)

The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - KlausR. 06:40:41 11/13/05 (23)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - Bruce from DC 08:35:39 11/14/05 (12)

Fremer the saviour? - KlausR. 23:52:32 11/14/05 (2)

answer to your last question: yes - Bruce from DC 06:06:02 11/15/05 (1)

Re: answer to your last question: yes - KlausR. 00:40:00 11/16/05 (0)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - jamesgarvin 11:51:53 11/14/05 (8)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - Pat D 07:45:00 11/16/05 (6)

Forgot to add.... - jamesgarvin 16:49:08 11/16/05 (0)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - jamesgarvin 16:42:01 11/16/05 (4)

You are correct, and I have the evidence in my files... somewhere... nt - clarkjohnsen 08:24:01 11/18/05 (0)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - Pat D 10:26:26 11/17/05 (2)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - jamesgarvin 16:43:48 11/17/05 (1)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - Pat D 17:29:45 11/17/05 (0)

You have exposed the curs and their curdom... for all the good that will do. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:20:09 11/15/05 (0)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - morricab 00:11:43 11/14/05 (6)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - KlausR. 05:14:11 11/14/05 (5)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - morricab 08:08:49 11/14/05 (4)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - KlausR. 09:32:25 11/14/05 (3)

Re: The point I tried to make, but apparently without success... - morricab 02:12:58 11/17/05 (2)

Not a fair comparison - KlausR. 07:29:34 11/17/05 (1)

Re: Not a fair comparison - morricab 07:54:02 11/17/05 (0)

I know what you're trying to say, but the thing is... - Bersani 10:07:06 11/13/05 (2)

Vinyl Has Had its Share Of Lemons - Mister Pig 16:08:19 11/13/05 (0)

I'm amazed that vinyl sounds as good as it does. - Dave Pogue 10:59:11 11/13/05 (0)

"the competent vinyl guys are leaving vinyl-city one by one." - Ivan303 18:00:56 11/12/05 (0)

Those line-item theoretical problems, just in numbers alone, - cdb 15:43:59 11/12/05 (0)

Sorry, Klaus, but young people are flocking to vinyl - bigi 14:10:07 11/12/05 (1)

"Vinyl is not flawless." Unlike how its critics imagine themselves? nt - clarkjohnsen 06:28:40 11/12/05 (12)

Please Clark, explain one thing - KlausR. 07:00:57 11/12/05 (11)

Here's the deal. You tell me what in audio, in your estimation, *is* flawless... - clarkjohnsen 10:37:42 11/13/05 (10)

No Clark... - KlausR. 09:39:40 11/14/05 (9)

"Bashing digital seems to be the favorite sport amongst audiophiles and audio reviewers." Well, no. - clarkjohnsen 09:53:02 11/14/05 (8)

Re: "Bashing digital seems to be the favorite sport amongst audiophiles and audio reviewers." Well, no. - KlausR. 11:12:10 11/14/05 (7)

You still don't get it: Digital is being bashed for bad sound, not for sport. If CD were so great... - clarkjohnsen 08:06:52 11/15/05 (4)

It's not because a couple of audio nuts... - KlausR. 08:56:38 11/15/05 (3)

"You audiophiles guys are an absolute minority." THEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? - clarkjohnsen 09:46:33 11/15/05 (2)

Where does it say that you have to be a certified audiophile? - KlausR. 06:34:01 11/16/05 (0)

Perhaps he can find the "Low Resolution Forum" - E-Stat 12:36:50 11/15/05 (0)

Bashing RBCD yes. sacd-no - hifitommy 19:51:24 11/14/05 (1)

SACD is being bashed, but... - KlausR. 23:41:20 11/14/05 (0)

"The competent vinyl guys are leaving vinyl-city" - Dave Pogue 04:27:14 11/12/05 (6)

Re: "The competent vinyl guys are leaving vinyl-city" - hahax@rcn.com 21:01:31 11/12/05 (0)

Those are some imbalanced comparisons. - bwkendall 14:57:17 11/12/05 (2)

Of course I'm fighting imbalance with imbalance :-) - Dave Pogue 16:12:55 11/12/05 (1)

I guess it is all in the player....or maybe the senses. - bwkendall 16:31:49 11/12/05 (1)

The competent vinyl guys... - KlausR. 06:49:13 11/12/05 (1)

Wow, is that lame? - Dave Pogue 14:31:38 11/12/05 (0)

Follow Ups

Without those experts, charts and numbers... - KlausR. 11/13/0508:55:04 11/13/05 (55)

Re: Without those experts, charts and numbers... - morricab 08:25:36 11/14/05 (39)

Re: Without those experts, charts and numbers... - KlausR. 09:22:02 11/14/05 (38)

The usual assumption - E-Stat 12:21:02 11/14/05 (37)

Re: The usual assumption - KlausR. 01:21:46 11/15/05 (36)

Seriously - E-Stat 04:09:59 11/15/05 (35)

Re: Seriously - KlausR. 06:41:15 11/15/05 (34)

Re: Seriously - morricab 10:48:25 11/15/05 (13)

Musical and others tastes - KlausR. 23:49:46 11/15/05 (12)

Re: Musical and others tastes - morricab 01:36:12 11/17/05 (4)

Re: Musical and others tastes - KlausR. 02:20:13 11/17/05 (3)

Re: Musical and others tastes - morricab 07:33:31 11/17/05 (2)

Regarding the late, great Michael Hedges - E-Stat 16:48:24 11/17/05 (1)

Re: Regarding the late, great Michael Hedges - morricab 05:47:49 11/18/05 (0)

Let's see, you don't like classical, music, jazz, or blues - Dave Pogue 04:56:30 11/16/05 (1)

Of course I want them to accept my views! - KlausR. 05:22:21 11/16/05 (0)

Re: Musical and others tastes - Amerigo 01:33:55 11/16/05 (4)

German audio mags - KlausR. 05:16:37 11/16/05 (3)

Re: German audio mags - Amerigo 00:01:49 11/17/05 (2)

Surfing - KlausR. 22:50:01 11/19/05 (1)

Re: Surfing - morricab 07:01:01 11/21/05 (0)

Calibration. - markrohr 09:55:42 11/15/05 (0)

Where do I start from such a response? - E-Stat 09:14:08 11/15/05 (16)

Re: Where do I start from such a response? - KlausR. 22:03:20 11/15/05 (8)

Continue to miss the points - E-Stat 04:41:21 11/16/05 (7)

You shall not judge another person's taste... - KlausR. 05:30:53 11/16/05 (6)

Re: You shall not judge another person's taste... - morricab 02:01:00 11/17/05 (3)

Re: You shall not judge another person's taste... - KlausR. 06:53:53 11/17/05 (2)

Re: You shall not judge another person's taste... - morricab 07:11:46 11/17/05 (1)

"I have an SPL meter and I use it, Klaus." - markrohr 09:13:07 11/17/05 (0)

Dynamic range - E-Stat 05:41:07 11/16/05 (1)

You may shake yor head as long as you want... - KlausR. 06:21:43 11/16/05 (0)

Live drum kits - markrohr 09:57:54 11/15/05 (6)

Excellent - E-Stat 10:39:19 11/15/05 (5)

More than that . . . - markrohr 11:35:45 11/15/05 (4)

Re: More than that . . . - morricab 02:05:33 11/17/05 (0)

Re: More than that . . . - theaudiohobby 06:44:41 11/16/05 (0)

Agreed on all points - E-Stat 11:56:12 11/15/05 (1)

Re: Agreed on all points - morricab 02:07:24 11/17/05 (0)

"I don't like classical music." There may be the whole problem. - clarkjohnsen 08:10:58 11/15/05 (1)

That's rubbish! - KlausR. 23:59:22 11/15/05 (0)

I disagree... - robert young 09:26:24 11/13/05 (14)

Well said. Bravo! nt - clarkjohnsen 08:12:18 11/15/05 (0)

Why is it so difficult... - KlausR. 00:03:46 11/14/05 (12)

audio is art directed engineering: unless you think it all sounds the same - Sordidman 11:17:41 11/15/05 (2)

Unless proven otherwise, yes, it all sounds the same - KlausR. 00:55:35 11/16/05 (1)

Please: either go out and get some experience, or go Troll over at Audio Circle -t - Sordidman 07:05:13 11/16/05 (0)

Re: Why is it so difficult... - Tom Schuman 07:38:38 11/14/05 (2)

Go listen to the Jolida JD100 tube CD player and say that (nt) - Jim Tavegia 16:14:25 11/17/05 (1)

I said some material... - Tom Schuman 09:55:03 11/18/05 (0)

Maybe because... - robert young 03:24:09 11/14/05 (5)

"It is the work of inventors with ears..." Yes indeed: Versed in the Art, as they say. nt - clarkjohnsen 08:15:45 11/15/05 (0)

We are getting further and further away from the initial message! - KlausR. 05:07:02 11/14/05 (3)

Not really Klaus. - robert young 05:14:02 11/14/05 (2)

Re: Not really Klaus. - KlausR. 05:39:08 11/14/05 (1)

hoisted by your own petard - robert young 05:59:03 11/14/05 (0)