In Reply to: John Atkinson's Rebuttal of Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" posted by bjh on April 22, 2006 at 10:49:11:
Well, John Atkinson's essay goes into quite a number of things, so it's difficult to say just what his main point is.Now, those who know about blind tests on the Stereophile forum have said that sometimes test tones result in more sensitive results and sometimes appropriate musical signals do. Stereophile itself did a DBT to determine with a tube and a solid state amp sounded different (though the measurements would have indicated that they did based on thresholds established by previous DBTs done by others).
On thing he proposes is that listening involves two levels of abstraction--I won't complain about this use of that term. First, we interpret the information coming in through the ears and nervous system to create 'auditory objects,' and second we 'interpolate' (I won't question that term, either) meaning into the auditory objects as to whether they are music or noise (and there are other possibilities).
It is not at all clear what this has to do with the validity of DBTs. DBTs for differences do not rest on some intuitive insight into people's minds but rely on what they say, "same" or "different" or perhaps A or B, indicate by pressing a button, which informtion is recorded whether on paper or digitally. The statistical results may show that they can hear the differences or do they may fail to do so.
Poor subjects for a DBT can be determined by seeing whether they report differences which are known to be audible to people with normal hearing (did you get that bjh, O lazy one?). One can do screening tests, such as testing their hearing. More informally, sometimes people who don't perceive differences during sighted auditions won't proceed on with the DBT. It pretty well depends on the purpose of the blind test what screening, if any, is required. I'm sure jj could provide more sophisticated information.
"I don't regard it as "voodoo" to conjecture that the condition of a test's being blind might itself be an interfering variable."
Yes, that's true, just conjecturing something does not amount to voodoo. However, one would like some real evidence before accepting the conjecture, and Mr. Atkinson doesn't provide any. He just moves from a conjectural 'might be' to an 'is actually.' I would like to see a reply to Mr. Atkinson's editorial by some like jj, who is eminently qualified to do so.
On the other hand, if his argument is meant to justify Stereophile's subjective reviews of things like interconnects, speaker cables, and power cables, he has failed from the start. Criticizing scientific methodology does not show that subjective audio reviewing is accurate and reliable, and I can't see he even attempts to provide a positive argument for that.
Now, I have never been one to issue blanket condemnations of Stereophile or other audio magazines. Some of them do a lot of good things. Mr. Atkinson does a pretty good set of measurements for a lot of equipment reviewed and I consider him to be a very good speaker reviewer, for example.
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Follow Ups
- Conjecture vs. proof - Pat D 04/25/0619:24:02 04/25/06 (39)
- Pat! - bjh 17:13:45 04/26/06 (36)
- Already read it. - Pat D 19:53:43 04/26/06 (35)
- "interconnect with the ground-shield connection made at one end from the other" - bjh 21:38:23 04/26/06 (34)
- You read rhetorically, my statement was literal. - Pat D 04:41:12 04/27/06 (33)
- One the question will you "... have the decency to STFU and accept your own statement?" - bjh 08:20:10 04/27/06 (32)
- I can't help it if you misread what's there. - Pat D 10:17:03 04/27/06 (31)
- So what is a "neutral" interconnect - E-Stat 16:00:46 04/27/06 (30)
- Re: So what is a "neutral" interconnect - Pat D 17:18:21 04/27/06 (29)
- Here's what you said - E-Stat 17:44:03 04/27/06 (28)
- Re: Here's what you said - Pat D 17:50:54 04/27/06 (27)
- Let's see if you can answer these simple questions - E-Stat 18:07:52 04/27/06 (26)
- So, in fact, nothing in my statement was unclear and you want to shift the discussion. - Pat D 06:02:08 04/28/06 (8)
- Fine - E-Stat 07:34:53 04/28/06 (7)
- Provide some evidence. - Pat D 14:16:02 04/28/06 (6)
- Evidence to what? - E-Stat 14:21:35 04/28/06 (5)
- Re: Evidence to what? - Pat D 14:23:59 04/28/06 (4)
- Is this a fair conclusion? - E-Stat 14:37:38 04/28/06 (3)
- Not really. - Pat D 18:24:27 04/28/06 (2)
- Everything sounds the same. Got it (nt) - E-Stat 18:51:59 04/28/06 (1)
- Where do you get such silliness? (nt) - Pat D 19:10:31 04/28/06 (0)
- E-Stat, you need to read Pat's tag line - Bruce from DC 05:52:28 04/28/06 (16)
- Reminds me of the ever evasive Silver Eared John (nt) - E-Stat 13:33:22 04/28/06 (0)
- Re: E-Stat, you need to read Pat's tag line - bjh 07:31:44 04/28/06 (0)
- Re: E-Stat, you need to read Pat's tag line - regmac 07:03:45 04/28/06 (1)
- to paraphrase our former President: - Bruce from DC 07:43:59 04/28/06 (0)
- Oh no, he's just trying to trip me up. - Pat D 06:16:57 04/28/06 (11)
- Re: "'being silly" - Bruce from DC 08:30:21 04/28/06 (1)
- Re: "'being silly" - Pat D 14:18:58 04/28/06 (0)
- Or, choice B - E-Stat 07:54:51 04/28/06 (8)
- Apparently you missed the most important lecture during ... - bjh 08:03:17 04/28/06 (7)
- Where did I assert my interconnects are neutral? - Pat D 14:21:58 04/28/06 (6)
- Ah ha --- so your interconnects are NOT neutral? - Richard BassNut Greene 07:09:06 05/3/06 (5)
- My dear Nut... - kerr 07:26:28 05/3/06 (4)
- k. d. lang has one of the best female voices in pop music -- although may sound like "Tiny Tim on YOUR system - Richard BassNut Greene 07:50:29 05/3/06 (3)
- She does - kerr 08:02:17 05/3/06 (2)
- That was a very amusing post -- your ghostwriter is ? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:38:53 05/3/06 (1)
- You of all people should be able to answer that! - kerr 08:53:54 05/3/06 (0)
- Why do I care - Frihed89 01:30:20 04/26/06 (1)
- How can I tell YOU what YOUR preferences are? - Pat D 05:50:55 04/26/06 (0)