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Classical Court From Perotin to Prokofiev (and beyond), performed by Caruso to Khatia, it's all here. |
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Classical Court From Perotin to Prokofiev (and beyond), performed by Caruso to Khatia, it's all here. |
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In Reply to: You're misrepresenting what I said posted by Chris from Lafayette on September 4, 2019 at 19:57:13:
"Basically, you are arguing for chaos!"
The reality is that our body of commercial recordings and audio gear is chaos. And surprisingly it works pretty damned well for us all in all
"You're arguing in favor of engineers or producers modifying the sound to their own liking, and then we play back the results on our own systems,"
That is what happens in many cases. And guess what? It really works well quite often.
"where we don't care about accuracy and we've tweaked our systems to our own separate pleasures (which, likely, do not correspond to the predispositions of other listeners)."
Yes, *I* listen to my stereo using my choice of masterings and media. That's wrong? I should listen to what I consider to be inferior sound for the sake of the objectivist audio tribe? Nope. Not gonna happen
"How can we even discuss the sound quality of a given recording amidst such chaos?"
How do you talk about sound quality of live music? It is even more chaotic. But we can have those discussions can we not? What instruements sound better, what halls sound better, what seats sound better. We can talk about those things without any objective points of reference and we can easily understand each other. It's really not a problem. And that really is my point. Why not just judge audio the way we judge live music? Cut to the chase and evaluate what we hear prima facie?
"It's already bad enough when we try to optimize our systems for what we believe is accuracy. The "please yourself" approach you espouse just makes things worse."
On the contrary, it gets bad when you chase the accuracy dragon. It gets really good when you realize that dragon is a creature from the realms of fantasy.
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Chris from Lafayette 17:50:50 09/1/19 (167)
- Translating a Broken Vessel - Mats Gunnars 11:36:14 09/6/19 (1)
- Hey, Mats - you're going all Zen-like on us! (But I like it!) [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 14:25:19 09/6/19 (0)
- RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Todd Krieger 00:04:14 09/4/19 (20)
- "I think an 'accurate' system just enables one... - Jim Treanor 14:40:02 09/4/19 (0)
- RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Analog Scott 05:28:50 09/4/19 (11)
- RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Todd Krieger 22:38:51 09/11/19 (1)
- RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Analog Scott 08:20:34 09/14/19 (0)
- So Scott, are you trying to tell us that. . . - Chris from Lafayette 08:26:29 09/4/19 (8)
- No that is definitely not what I am trying to tell anyone - Analog Scott 10:34:07 09/4/19 (7)
- "there is no way anyone can determine the resolution of any system by listening alone" - Chris from Lafayette 19:28:54 09/4/19 (6)
- I think maybe you might have misread my post - Analog Scott 20:41:19 09/4/19 (5)
- OK - you concede my point - Yeay! - I win! ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 00:24:29 09/5/19 (4)
- RE: OK - you concede my point - Yeay! - I win! ;-) - Analog Scott 10:43:24 09/5/19 (3)
- RE: OK - you concede my point - Yeay! - I win! ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 16:02:41 09/5/19 (2)
- RE: OK - you concede my point - Yeay! - I win! ;-) - Analog Scott 17:21:21 09/5/19 (1)
- As I was saying. . . - Chris from Lafayette 00:51:14 09/6/19 (0)
- I think that kind of "accurate" system should be a kind of starting point anyway - Chris from Lafayette 00:14:25 09/4/19 (6)
- RE: I think that kind of "accurate" system should be a kind of starting point anyway - Todd Krieger 00:22:28 09/4/19 (5)
- RE: I think that kind of "accurate" system should be a kind of starting point anyway - Analog Scott 05:30:40 09/4/19 (4)
- RE: I think that kind of "accurate" system should be a kind of starting point anyway - Todd Krieger 22:31:50 09/11/19 (3)
- "I think "accurate" recreates the sonic qualities of the real thing....." - Analog Scott 08:25:58 09/14/19 (2)
- Once Again..... Nobody Will Agree.......... - Todd Krieger 01:07:20 09/16/19 (1)
- "ultimate key is if one is happy with the result" - Analog Scott 09:17:18 09/16/19 (0)
- In the perfect world I want an accuracy in my playback system... - kuma 15:41:02 09/3/19 (2)
- I hear you - nobody has a perfectly accurate playback system - Chris from Lafayette 17:23:56 09/3/19 (1)
- I duuno if i always strived for a *perfection*... - kuma 11:22:25 09/4/19 (0)
- And the dead moose in the room for the objectivist quest for accuracy. - Analog Scott 13:14:28 09/3/19 (57)
- OK, Scott - I think everyone who's still interested in this thread. . . - Chris from Lafayette 21:17:49 09/8/19 (2)
- Of course people are free to decide for themselves - Analog Scott 10:48:15 09/14/19 (1)
- Moi? Personalizing the debate? - I didn't say who was who! ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 18:08:01 09/14/19 (0)
- You think you've found a contradiction, but. . . - Chris from Lafayette 14:12:36 09/3/19 (51)
- "you don't seem to realize that you've loaded the question!" - Analog Scott 16:40:31 09/3/19 (50)
- Well, it was your question that was about value judgements - Chris from Lafayette 17:10:11 09/3/19 (49)
- "And it should be" - Analog Scott 19:59:04 09/3/19 (48)
- It should sound the way it was recorded - if you want it to sound "better". . . - Chris from Lafayette 21:19:06 09/3/19 (47)
- It is true, I can't handle the truth - Analog Scott 22:08:31 09/3/19 (46)
- Bunch of assertions (The truth is lost at the point of contact with the microphones. - Really?) - Chris from Lafayette 23:49:09 09/3/19 (45)
- Yes really. That is an objective fact - Analog Scott 05:33:33 09/4/19 (44)
- Yes - correct (I was being rhetorical) - Chris from Lafayette 08:30:48 09/4/19 (43)
- RE: Yes - correct (I was being rhetorical) - Analog Scott 14:01:56 09/5/19 (42)
- RE: Yes - correct (I was being rhetorical) - Tre' 19:50:25 09/5/19 (37)
- Nope - Analog Scott 20:42:26 09/5/19 (36)
- "the 3 dimensional acoustic sound wave does not only exist at the single point of a microphone" - Chris from Lafayette 02:06:29 09/6/19 (7)
- RE: "the 3 dimensional acoustic sound wave does not only exist at the single point of a microphone" - Analog Scott 05:55:18 09/6/19 (6)
- I see that you've now shuffled back to claiming. . . - Chris from Lafayette 17:43:29 09/6/19 (5)
- My claims have been consistent. - Analog Scott 12:31:48 09/7/19 (4)
- And each of those vantage points has ITS OWN accuracy! - Chris from Lafayette 17:46:55 09/7/19 (3)
- RE: And each of those vantage points has ITS OWN accuracy! - Analog Scott 19:44:11 09/7/19 (2)
- RE: And each of those vantage points has ITS OWN accuracy! - Chris from Lafayette 20:46:04 09/7/19 (1)
- "So. . . whence with your "three dimensional acoustic sound wave [singular]?" - Analog Scott 13:34:14 09/8/19 (0)
- Scott, your perfectionist standards for accuracy aren't really relevant - Chris from Lafayette 01:19:14 09/6/19 (9)
- RE: Scott, your perfectionist standards for accuracy aren't really relevant - Analog Scott 05:58:55 09/6/19 (8)
- I'm afraid my experience with classic mono jazz recordings. . . - Chris from Lafayette 14:05:32 09/6/19 (7)
- RE: I'm afraid my experience with classic mono jazz recordings. . . - Analog Scott 14:51:31 09/6/19 (6)
- We use the word, "obvious", when we don't have actual arguments - Chris from Lafayette 15:19:53 09/6/19 (5)
- OK I will rephrase it. - Analog Scott 15:54:34 09/6/19 (4)
- Maybe your aural memories are vague, but mine are not ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 01:26:47 09/7/19 (3)
- Right, who should I believe science or Chris????? - Analog Scott 13:19:05 09/7/19 (2)
- You flatter yourself if you think your opinions are science - Chris from Lafayette 19:15:09 09/7/19 (1)
- RE: You flatter yourself if you think your opinions are science - Analog Scott 09:36:40 09/8/19 (0)
- Nope - Tre' 21:05:31 09/5/19 (17)
- "the key word "ears" - Analog Scott 22:28:08 09/5/19 (6)
- No, the key word is accuracy (aka the "fidelity" in "high fidelity" - Chris from Lafayette 14:21:09 09/6/19 (5)
- Accuracy to what you think you remember live sound sounds like - Analog Scott 14:53:19 09/6/19 (4)
- So, Scott, you're demanding that memories be measured? - Chris from Lafayette 15:25:25 09/6/19 (3)
- No, I am saying they don't work as a reference for any meaningful idea of accuracy because they can't - Analog Scott 13:24:16 09/7/19 (2)
- Whoah! Now you sound like an objectivist! - Chris from Lafayette 19:18:26 09/7/19 (1)
- LOL I am the objectivists' worst nightmare - Analog Scott 13:53:24 09/8/19 (0)
- I have two friends that are stone deaf in one ear and the ... - Tre' 21:22:12 09/5/19 (9)
- RE: I have two friends that are stone deaf in one ear and the ... - Analog Scott 22:29:40 09/5/19 (8)
- Chris said it better than I - Tre' 06:36:59 09/6/19 (7)
- This is a discussion about **accuracy** - Analog Scott 08:09:21 09/6/19 (6)
- RE: This is a discussion about **accuracy** - Tre' 09:23:00 09/6/19 (5)
- "Yes, but that is not what matters." - Analog Scott 11:15:32 09/6/19 (4)
- When you say things such as. . . - Chris from Lafayette 14:48:44 09/6/19 (3)
- You need to pay closer attention to what i am actually saying.. - Analog Scott 13:27:35 09/7/19 (2)
- Maybe YOU need to study what you've been saying - Chris from Lafayette 19:43:00 09/7/19 (1)
- RE: Maybe YOU need to study what you've been saying - Analog Scott 13:39:39 09/8/19 (0)
- Easy! You can compare it when it comes out the other end. . . - Chris from Lafayette 16:05:48 09/5/19 (3)
- That's not going to work at all - Analog Scott 17:18:54 09/5/19 (2)
- Not 2-6 speakers - A 7.2.1 system is. . . 10 speakers in, yes, three dimensions - Chris from Lafayette 00:34:08 09/6/19 (1)
- RE: Not 2-6 speakers - A 7.2.1 system is. . . 10 speakers in, yes, three dimensions - Analog Scott 06:00:09 09/6/19 (0)
- agree with first, not second - DrChaos 13:54:58 09/3/19 (1)
- I was not talking about the speakers they use - Analog Scott 20:00:19 09/3/19 (0)
- Important fundamental differences between live sound and playback that make them incomparable - Analog Scott 12:52:29 09/3/19 (1)
- RE: Important fundamental differences between live sound and playback that make them incomparable - Chris from Lafayette 13:58:29 09/3/19 (0)
- Live music as a reference - Analog Scott 12:01:21 09/3/19 (25)
- You have an anecdote - nothing more than that - Chris from Lafayette 12:58:17 09/3/19 (24)
- Yes, it's an anecdote but - Analog Scott 13:06:55 09/3/19 (23)
- It does not have any statistical significance - Chris from Lafayette 13:11:38 09/3/19 (22)
- ah but you dodged the question - Analog Scott 13:17:01 09/3/19 (21)
- You asked three questions - I answered one of them - Chris from Lafayette 14:04:48 09/3/19 (20)
- I wish we could put it to the test. I think you would be quite surprised by the results - Analog Scott 20:04:32 09/3/19 (19)
- Nonsense - of course you can! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 21:20:07 09/3/19 (18)
- how? - Analog Scott 22:10:30 09/3/19 (17)
- My reply was to your assertion. . . - Chris from Lafayette 23:58:13 09/3/19 (16)
- That's easy. here is just one example you can test for yourself - Analog Scott 06:50:36 09/4/19 (15)
- RE: That's easy. here is just one example you can test for yourself - rjan 22:25:18 09/4/19 (3)
- While I disagree with your last sentence. . . - Chris from Lafayette 01:04:03 09/5/19 (2)
- has nothing to do with the quality of the sound - Analog Scott 11:00:20 09/5/19 (1)
- Dunno, Scott - You ever tried it? [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 16:07:17 09/5/19 (0)
- Yes - that's an interesting effect - Chris from Lafayette 08:51:42 09/4/19 (10)
- It is just one of the many mechanisms we can't unlearn through experience - Analog Scott 10:26:05 09/4/19 (9)
- I think you'd better take up your differences with the BBC then - Chris from Lafayette 19:25:34 09/4/19 (8)
- But I am the one agreeing with the BBC - Analog Scott 20:46:54 09/4/19 (7)
- Yeah, that's a fun video that doesn't prove what you think it does - Chris from Lafayette 00:40:55 09/5/19 (6)
- It isn't meant to prove it it is meant to illustrate it. - Analog Scott 10:59:14 09/5/19 (5)
- Not at all - you seem to be forgetting that the viewer has been instructed to. . . - Chris from Lafayette 16:51:34 09/5/19 (4)
- This stuff has all been thoroughly researched - Analog Scott 17:33:51 09/5/19 (3)
- Sounds like you may be arguing by authority now - Chris from Lafayette 01:25:16 09/6/19 (2)
- Did you actually watch the video - Analog Scott 06:03:14 09/6/19 (1)
- Don't worry - I'll get to it! [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 01:48:16 09/7/19 (0)
- So many issues. I am going to try to cover specific points separately. - Analog Scott 11:51:31 09/3/19 (1)
- "one starts with two things. 1. What do you have. 2. What do you want the result to be" - Chris from Lafayette 13:09:47 09/3/19 (0)
- I quit worrying about this stuff years ago. - Jim Treanor 16:52:58 09/2/19 (3)
- RE: "Bought a used Knabe spinet for $600 at Sherman Clay in SF in 1982".... - Ivan303 07:33:38 09/3/19 (2)
- Who's the virtuoso sitting there? [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 09:19:06 09/3/19 (0)
- Nice acquisition there, Ivan. -nt - Jim Treanor 07:50:58 09/3/19 (0)
- I have a simpler goal - andy evans 01:43:19 09/2/19 (38)
- RE: yep, but - bean 07:51:45 09/3/19 (2)
- I suspect dynamic accuracy is part of timbre - andy evans 09:10:02 09/3/19 (1)
- absolutely, given that we get timbre from attacks and decays. NOT from the continuous tone and its harmonics. - Timbo in Oz 02:42:15 09/6/19 (0)
- Many roads lead to Rome, but. . . - Chris from Lafayette 08:29:15 09/2/19 (34)
- not always right - Analog Scott 10:12:43 09/4/19 (18)
- RE: not always right - Tre' 18:03:05 09/5/19 (7)
- RE: not always right - Analog Scott 18:47:02 09/5/19 (6)
- RE: not always right - Tre' 19:54:31 09/5/19 (5)
- RE: not always right - Analog Scott 20:44:18 09/5/19 (4)
- RE: not always right - Tre' 06:43:49 09/6/19 (3)
- RE: not always right - Analog Scott 13:21:49 09/6/19 (2)
- So what you're really saying is. . . - Chris from Lafayette 01:46:28 09/7/19 (1)
- Nope not what I am saying at all - Analog Scott 13:29:07 09/7/19 (0)
- But if those harmonics weren't there in the original performance. . . - Chris from Lafayette 00:51:18 09/5/19 (9)
- RE: But if those harmonics weren't there in the original performance. . . - Analog Scott 11:03:48 09/5/19 (8)
- RE: But if those harmonics weren't there in the original performance. . . - Analog Scott 17:39:11 09/5/19 (6)
- No, that's not "what we've got" - Chris from Lafayette 01:48:10 09/6/19 (5)
- I have some news for you - Analog Scott 13:31:56 09/6/19 (4)
- I'm very aware of how most commercial recordings are made - Chris from Lafayette 01:39:08 09/7/19 (3)
- If nothing else you are very confident - Analog Scott 13:32:14 09/7/19 (2)
- Nope - I'm not a magic clock kind of guy [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 19:22:35 09/7/19 (1)
- Perhaps not - Analog Scott 13:42:34 09/8/19 (0)
- Yes, I know that's your philosophy, but. . . - Chris from Lafayette 17:04:35 09/5/19 (0)
- Digital has grown up, but when it comes to delicacy and rhythmic "energy" I'd still give edge to vinyl, even - jdaniel@jps.net 10:25:40 09/2/19 (2)
- And yet, you yourself have abandoned vinyl - Chris from Lafayette 15:03:49 09/2/19 (1)
- Depends upon what you mean by noise floor. I prefer Art Salvatore's definition. - jdaniel@jps.net 17:54:45 09/2/19 (0)
- Not really. - Rick W 09:18:59 09/2/19 (11)
- RE: Not really. - Analog Scott 10:05:22 09/4/19 (5)
- You're misrepresenting what I said - Chris from Lafayette 19:57:13 09/4/19 (4)
- RE: You're misrepresenting what I said part 2 - Analog Scott 09/5/1911:20:02 09/5/19 (0)
- How? I didn't represent what *you* said in my post - Analog Scott 11:12:29 09/5/19 (2)
- Now you're misrepresenting what YOU said! - Chris from Lafayette 20:25:15 09/7/19 (1)
- I hate to play this card but you are misunderstanding what I said - Analog Scott 13:50:54 09/8/19 (0)
- I may be in agreement with Andy, but probably not with you - Chris from Lafayette 14:58:20 09/2/19 (4)
- RE: I may be in agreement with Andy, but probably not with you - Tre' 18:40:50 09/5/19 (1)
- Oh man! That's an amusing article but I don't want to have to comment on it! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 02:11:41 09/6/19 (0)
- DAMN! - Rick W 16:54:53 09/2/19 (1)
- Perhaps we aren't that far apart - we're just filing the same phenomena under different categories! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 00:16:06 09/3/19 (0)
- RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - learsfool 21:37:04 09/1/19 (6)
- "a high end vinyl playback system will . . . always sound much better" - Chris from Lafayette 00:15:50 09/2/19 (5)
- I also disagree. - DrChaos 10:25:39 09/3/19 (0)
- "Distortions." I've always felt that vinyl projected a more sharply-focused and liberated sound than Digital - jdaniel@jps.net 10:45:18 09/2/19 (3)
- Fine - that's personal preference [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 15:05:24 09/2/19 (2)
- Yes, so odd to prefer sharper focus and more liberated sound. : ) Like I said, Digital has grown up. nt - jdaniel@jps.net 17:48:43 09/2/19 (1)
- Believe me, I have the same preferences [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 00:22:20 09/3/19 (0)
- RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Ivan303 19:33:11 09/1/19 (0)
- Give me enthusiasm and spirit nt - jdaniel@jps.net 18:10:14 09/1/19 (1)
- You can have those with both! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 18:36:53 09/1/19 (0)
Follow Ups
- RE: You're misrepresenting what I said part 2 - Analog Scott 09/5/1911:20:02 09/5/19 (0)
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