You think you've found a contradiction, but. . .

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Topic - Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Chris from Lafayette 17:50:50 09/1/19 (167)

Translating a Broken Vessel - Mats Gunnars 11:36:14 09/6/19 (1)

Hey, Mats - you're going all Zen-like on us! (But I like it!) [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 14:25:19 09/6/19 (0)

RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Todd Krieger 00:04:14 09/4/19 (20)

"I think an 'accurate' system just enables one... - Jim Treanor 14:40:02 09/4/19 (0)

RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Analog Scott 05:28:50 09/4/19 (11)

RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Todd Krieger 22:38:51 09/11/19 (1)

RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Analog Scott 08:20:34 09/14/19 (0)

So Scott, are you trying to tell us that. . . - Chris from Lafayette 08:26:29 09/4/19 (8)

No that is definitely not what I am trying to tell anyone - Analog Scott 10:34:07 09/4/19 (7)

"there is no way anyone can determine the resolution of any system by listening alone" - Chris from Lafayette 19:28:54 09/4/19 (6)

I think maybe you might have misread my post - Analog Scott 20:41:19 09/4/19 (5)

OK - you concede my point - Yeay! - I win! ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 00:24:29 09/5/19 (4)

RE: OK - you concede my point - Yeay! - I win! ;-) - Analog Scott 10:43:24 09/5/19 (3)

RE: OK - you concede my point - Yeay! - I win! ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 16:02:41 09/5/19 (2)

RE: OK - you concede my point - Yeay! - I win! ;-) - Analog Scott 17:21:21 09/5/19 (1)

As I was saying. . . - Chris from Lafayette 00:51:14 09/6/19 (0)

I think that kind of "accurate" system should be a kind of starting point anyway - Chris from Lafayette 00:14:25 09/4/19 (6)

RE: I think that kind of "accurate" system should be a kind of starting point anyway - Todd Krieger 00:22:28 09/4/19 (5)

RE: I think that kind of "accurate" system should be a kind of starting point anyway - Analog Scott 05:30:40 09/4/19 (4)

RE: I think that kind of "accurate" system should be a kind of starting point anyway - Todd Krieger 22:31:50 09/11/19 (3)

"I think "accurate" recreates the sonic qualities of the real thing....." - Analog Scott 08:25:58 09/14/19 (2)

Once Again..... Nobody Will Agree.......... - Todd Krieger 01:07:20 09/16/19 (1)

"ultimate key is if one is happy with the result" - Analog Scott 09:17:18 09/16/19 (0)

In the perfect world I want an accuracy in my playback system... - kuma 15:41:02 09/3/19 (2)

I hear you - nobody has a perfectly accurate playback system - Chris from Lafayette 17:23:56 09/3/19 (1)

I duuno if i always strived for a *perfection*... - kuma 11:22:25 09/4/19 (0)

And the dead moose in the room for the objectivist quest for accuracy. - Analog Scott 13:14:28 09/3/19 (57)

OK, Scott - I think everyone who's still interested in this thread. . . - Chris from Lafayette 21:17:49 09/8/19 (2)

Of course people are free to decide for themselves - Analog Scott 10:48:15 09/14/19 (1)

Moi? Personalizing the debate? - I didn't say who was who! ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 18:08:01 09/14/19 (0)

You think you've found a contradiction, but. . . - Chris from Lafayette 09/3/1914:12:36 09/3/19 (51)

"you don't seem to realize that you've loaded the question!" - Analog Scott 16:40:31 09/3/19 (50)

Well, it was your question that was about value judgements - Chris from Lafayette 17:10:11 09/3/19 (49)

"And it should be" - Analog Scott 19:59:04 09/3/19 (48)

It should sound the way it was recorded - if you want it to sound "better". . . - Chris from Lafayette 21:19:06 09/3/19 (47)

It is true, I can't handle the truth - Analog Scott 22:08:31 09/3/19 (46)

Bunch of assertions (The truth is lost at the point of contact with the microphones. - Really?) - Chris from Lafayette 23:49:09 09/3/19 (45)

Yes really. That is an objective fact - Analog Scott 05:33:33 09/4/19 (44)

Yes - correct (I was being rhetorical) - Chris from Lafayette 08:30:48 09/4/19 (43)

RE: Yes - correct (I was being rhetorical) - Analog Scott 14:01:56 09/5/19 (42)

RE: Yes - correct (I was being rhetorical) - Tre' 19:50:25 09/5/19 (37)

Nope - Analog Scott 20:42:26 09/5/19 (36)

"the 3 dimensional acoustic sound wave does not only exist at the single point of a microphone" - Chris from Lafayette 02:06:29 09/6/19 (7)

RE: "the 3 dimensional acoustic sound wave does not only exist at the single point of a microphone" - Analog Scott 05:55:18 09/6/19 (6)

I see that you've now shuffled back to claiming. . . - Chris from Lafayette 17:43:29 09/6/19 (5)

My claims have been consistent. - Analog Scott 12:31:48 09/7/19 (4)

And each of those vantage points has ITS OWN accuracy! - Chris from Lafayette 17:46:55 09/7/19 (3)

RE: And each of those vantage points has ITS OWN accuracy! - Analog Scott 19:44:11 09/7/19 (2)

RE: And each of those vantage points has ITS OWN accuracy! - Chris from Lafayette 20:46:04 09/7/19 (1)

"So. . . whence with your "three dimensional acoustic sound wave [singular]?" - Analog Scott 13:34:14 09/8/19 (0)

Scott, your perfectionist standards for accuracy aren't really relevant - Chris from Lafayette 01:19:14 09/6/19 (9)

RE: Scott, your perfectionist standards for accuracy aren't really relevant - Analog Scott 05:58:55 09/6/19 (8)

I'm afraid my experience with classic mono jazz recordings. . . - Chris from Lafayette 14:05:32 09/6/19 (7)

RE: I'm afraid my experience with classic mono jazz recordings. . . - Analog Scott 14:51:31 09/6/19 (6)

We use the word, "obvious", when we don't have actual arguments - Chris from Lafayette 15:19:53 09/6/19 (5)

OK I will rephrase it. - Analog Scott 15:54:34 09/6/19 (4)

Maybe your aural memories are vague, but mine are not ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 01:26:47 09/7/19 (3)

Right, who should I believe science or Chris????? - Analog Scott 13:19:05 09/7/19 (2)

You flatter yourself if you think your opinions are science - Chris from Lafayette 19:15:09 09/7/19 (1)

RE: You flatter yourself if you think your opinions are science - Analog Scott 09:36:40 09/8/19 (0)

Nope - Tre' 21:05:31 09/5/19 (17)

"the key word "ears" - Analog Scott 22:28:08 09/5/19 (6)

No, the key word is accuracy (aka the "fidelity" in "high fidelity" - Chris from Lafayette 14:21:09 09/6/19 (5)

Accuracy to what you think you remember live sound sounds like - Analog Scott 14:53:19 09/6/19 (4)

So, Scott, you're demanding that memories be measured? - Chris from Lafayette 15:25:25 09/6/19 (3)

No, I am saying they don't work as a reference for any meaningful idea of accuracy because they can't - Analog Scott 13:24:16 09/7/19 (2)

Whoah! Now you sound like an objectivist! - Chris from Lafayette 19:18:26 09/7/19 (1)

LOL I am the objectivists' worst nightmare - Analog Scott 13:53:24 09/8/19 (0)

I have two friends that are stone deaf in one ear and the ... - Tre' 21:22:12 09/5/19 (9)

RE: I have two friends that are stone deaf in one ear and the ... - Analog Scott 22:29:40 09/5/19 (8)

Chris said it better than I - Tre' 06:36:59 09/6/19 (7)

This is a discussion about **accuracy** - Analog Scott 08:09:21 09/6/19 (6)

RE: This is a discussion about **accuracy** - Tre' 09:23:00 09/6/19 (5)

"Yes, but that is not what matters." - Analog Scott 11:15:32 09/6/19 (4)

When you say things such as. . . - Chris from Lafayette 14:48:44 09/6/19 (3)

You need to pay closer attention to what i am actually saying.. - Analog Scott 13:27:35 09/7/19 (2)

Maybe YOU need to study what you've been saying - Chris from Lafayette 19:43:00 09/7/19 (1)

RE: Maybe YOU need to study what you've been saying - Analog Scott 13:39:39 09/8/19 (0)

Easy! You can compare it when it comes out the other end. . . - Chris from Lafayette 16:05:48 09/5/19 (3)

That's not going to work at all - Analog Scott 17:18:54 09/5/19 (2)

Not 2-6 speakers - A 7.2.1 system is. . . 10 speakers in, yes, three dimensions - Chris from Lafayette 00:34:08 09/6/19 (1)

RE: Not 2-6 speakers - A 7.2.1 system is. . . 10 speakers in, yes, three dimensions - Analog Scott 06:00:09 09/6/19 (0)

agree with first, not second - DrChaos 13:54:58 09/3/19 (1)

I was not talking about the speakers they use - Analog Scott 20:00:19 09/3/19 (0)

Important fundamental differences between live sound and playback that make them incomparable - Analog Scott 12:52:29 09/3/19 (1)

RE: Important fundamental differences between live sound and playback that make them incomparable - Chris from Lafayette 13:58:29 09/3/19 (0)

Live music as a reference - Analog Scott 12:01:21 09/3/19 (25)

You have an anecdote - nothing more than that - Chris from Lafayette 12:58:17 09/3/19 (24)

Yes, it's an anecdote but - Analog Scott 13:06:55 09/3/19 (23)

It does not have any statistical significance - Chris from Lafayette 13:11:38 09/3/19 (22)

ah but you dodged the question - Analog Scott 13:17:01 09/3/19 (21)

You asked three questions - I answered one of them - Chris from Lafayette 14:04:48 09/3/19 (20)

I wish we could put it to the test. I think you would be quite surprised by the results - Analog Scott 20:04:32 09/3/19 (19)

Nonsense - of course you can! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 21:20:07 09/3/19 (18)

how? - Analog Scott 22:10:30 09/3/19 (17)

My reply was to your assertion. . . - Chris from Lafayette 23:58:13 09/3/19 (16)

That's easy. here is just one example you can test for yourself - Analog Scott 06:50:36 09/4/19 (15)

RE: That's easy. here is just one example you can test for yourself - rjan 22:25:18 09/4/19 (3)

While I disagree with your last sentence. . . - Chris from Lafayette 01:04:03 09/5/19 (2)

has nothing to do with the quality of the sound - Analog Scott 11:00:20 09/5/19 (1)

Dunno, Scott - You ever tried it? [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 16:07:17 09/5/19 (0)

Yes - that's an interesting effect - Chris from Lafayette 08:51:42 09/4/19 (10)

It is just one of the many mechanisms we can't unlearn through experience - Analog Scott 10:26:05 09/4/19 (9)

I think you'd better take up your differences with the BBC then - Chris from Lafayette 19:25:34 09/4/19 (8)

But I am the one agreeing with the BBC - Analog Scott 20:46:54 09/4/19 (7)

Yeah, that's a fun video that doesn't prove what you think it does - Chris from Lafayette 00:40:55 09/5/19 (6)

It isn't meant to prove it it is meant to illustrate it. - Analog Scott 10:59:14 09/5/19 (5)

Not at all - you seem to be forgetting that the viewer has been instructed to. . . - Chris from Lafayette 16:51:34 09/5/19 (4)

This stuff has all been thoroughly researched - Analog Scott 17:33:51 09/5/19 (3)

Sounds like you may be arguing by authority now - Chris from Lafayette 01:25:16 09/6/19 (2)

Did you actually watch the video - Analog Scott 06:03:14 09/6/19 (1)

Don't worry - I'll get to it! [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 01:48:16 09/7/19 (0)

So many issues. I am going to try to cover specific points separately. - Analog Scott 11:51:31 09/3/19 (1)

"one starts with two things. 1. What do you have. 2. What do you want the result to be" - Chris from Lafayette 13:09:47 09/3/19 (0)

I quit worrying about this stuff years ago. - Jim Treanor 16:52:58 09/2/19 (3)

RE: "Bought a used Knabe spinet for $600 at Sherman Clay in SF in 1982".... - Ivan303 07:33:38 09/3/19 (2)

Who's the virtuoso sitting there? [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 09:19:06 09/3/19 (0)

Nice acquisition there, Ivan. -nt - Jim Treanor 07:50:58 09/3/19 (0)

I have a simpler goal - andy evans 01:43:19 09/2/19 (38)

RE: yep, but - bean 07:51:45 09/3/19 (2)

I suspect dynamic accuracy is part of timbre - andy evans 09:10:02 09/3/19 (1)

absolutely, given that we get timbre from attacks and decays. NOT from the continuous tone and its harmonics. - Timbo in Oz 02:42:15 09/6/19 (0)

Many roads lead to Rome, but. . . - Chris from Lafayette 08:29:15 09/2/19 (34)

not always right - Analog Scott 10:12:43 09/4/19 (18)

RE: not always right - Tre' 18:03:05 09/5/19 (7)

RE: not always right - Analog Scott 18:47:02 09/5/19 (6)

RE: not always right - Tre' 19:54:31 09/5/19 (5)

RE: not always right - Analog Scott 20:44:18 09/5/19 (4)

RE: not always right - Tre' 06:43:49 09/6/19 (3)

RE: not always right - Analog Scott 13:21:49 09/6/19 (2)

So what you're really saying is. . . - Chris from Lafayette 01:46:28 09/7/19 (1)

Nope not what I am saying at all - Analog Scott 13:29:07 09/7/19 (0)

But if those harmonics weren't there in the original performance. . . - Chris from Lafayette 00:51:18 09/5/19 (9)

RE: But if those harmonics weren't there in the original performance. . . - Analog Scott 11:03:48 09/5/19 (8)

RE: But if those harmonics weren't there in the original performance. . . - Analog Scott 17:39:11 09/5/19 (6)

No, that's not "what we've got" - Chris from Lafayette 01:48:10 09/6/19 (5)

I have some news for you - Analog Scott 13:31:56 09/6/19 (4)

I'm very aware of how most commercial recordings are made - Chris from Lafayette 01:39:08 09/7/19 (3)

If nothing else you are very confident - Analog Scott 13:32:14 09/7/19 (2)

Nope - I'm not a magic clock kind of guy [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 19:22:35 09/7/19 (1)

Perhaps not - Analog Scott 13:42:34 09/8/19 (0)

Yes, I know that's your philosophy, but. . . - Chris from Lafayette 17:04:35 09/5/19 (0)

Digital has grown up, but when it comes to delicacy and rhythmic "energy" I'd still give edge to vinyl, even - jdaniel@jps.net 10:25:40 09/2/19 (2)

And yet, you yourself have abandoned vinyl - Chris from Lafayette 15:03:49 09/2/19 (1)

Depends upon what you mean by noise floor. I prefer Art Salvatore's definition. - jdaniel@jps.net 17:54:45 09/2/19 (0)

Not really. - Rick W 09:18:59 09/2/19 (11)

RE: Not really. - Analog Scott 10:05:22 09/4/19 (5)

You're misrepresenting what I said - Chris from Lafayette 19:57:13 09/4/19 (4)

RE: You're misrepresenting what I said part 2 - Analog Scott 11:20:02 09/5/19 (0)

How? I didn't represent what *you* said in my post - Analog Scott 11:12:29 09/5/19 (2)

Now you're misrepresenting what YOU said! - Chris from Lafayette 20:25:15 09/7/19 (1)

I hate to play this card but you are misunderstanding what I said - Analog Scott 13:50:54 09/8/19 (0)

I may be in agreement with Andy, but probably not with you - Chris from Lafayette 14:58:20 09/2/19 (4)

RE: I may be in agreement with Andy, but probably not with you - Tre' 18:40:50 09/5/19 (1)

Oh man! That's an amusing article but I don't want to have to comment on it! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 02:11:41 09/6/19 (0)

DAMN! - Rick W 16:54:53 09/2/19 (1)

Perhaps we aren't that far apart - we're just filing the same phenomena under different categories! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 00:16:06 09/3/19 (0)

RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - learsfool 21:37:04 09/1/19 (6)

"a high end vinyl playback system will . . . always sound much better" - Chris from Lafayette 00:15:50 09/2/19 (5)

I also disagree. - DrChaos 10:25:39 09/3/19 (0)

"Distortions." I've always felt that vinyl projected a more sharply-focused and liberated sound than Digital - jdaniel@jps.net 10:45:18 09/2/19 (3)

Fine - that's personal preference [nt] - Chris from Lafayette 15:05:24 09/2/19 (2)

Yes, so odd to prefer sharper focus and more liberated sound. : ) Like I said, Digital has grown up. nt - jdaniel@jps.net 17:48:43 09/2/19 (1)

Believe me, I have the same preferences [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 00:22:20 09/3/19 (0)

RE: Finally - back to the important stuff: accuracy or euphony? - Ivan303 19:33:11 09/1/19 (0)

Give me enthusiasm and spirit nt - jdaniel@jps.net 18:10:14 09/1/19 (1)

You can have those with both! [nt] ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 18:36:53 09/1/19 (0)

Follow Ups

You think you've found a contradiction, but. . . - Chris from Lafayette 09/3/1914:12:36 09/3/19 (51)

"you don't seem to realize that you've loaded the question!" - Analog Scott 16:40:31 09/3/19 (50)

Well, it was your question that was about value judgements - Chris from Lafayette 17:10:11 09/3/19 (49)

"And it should be" - Analog Scott 19:59:04 09/3/19 (48)

It should sound the way it was recorded - if you want it to sound "better". . . - Chris from Lafayette 21:19:06 09/3/19 (47)

It is true, I can't handle the truth - Analog Scott 22:08:31 09/3/19 (46)

Bunch of assertions (The truth is lost at the point of contact with the microphones. - Really?) - Chris from Lafayette 23:49:09 09/3/19 (45)

Yes really. That is an objective fact - Analog Scott 05:33:33 09/4/19 (44)

Yes - correct (I was being rhetorical) - Chris from Lafayette 08:30:48 09/4/19 (43)

RE: Yes - correct (I was being rhetorical) - Analog Scott 14:01:56 09/5/19 (42)

RE: Yes - correct (I was being rhetorical) - Tre' 19:50:25 09/5/19 (37)

Nope - Analog Scott 20:42:26 09/5/19 (36)

"the 3 dimensional acoustic sound wave does not only exist at the single point of a microphone" - Chris from Lafayette 02:06:29 09/6/19 (7)

RE: "the 3 dimensional acoustic sound wave does not only exist at the single point of a microphone" - Analog Scott 05:55:18 09/6/19 (6)

I see that you've now shuffled back to claiming. . . - Chris from Lafayette 17:43:29 09/6/19 (5)

My claims have been consistent. - Analog Scott 12:31:48 09/7/19 (4)

And each of those vantage points has ITS OWN accuracy! - Chris from Lafayette 17:46:55 09/7/19 (3)

RE: And each of those vantage points has ITS OWN accuracy! - Analog Scott 19:44:11 09/7/19 (2)

RE: And each of those vantage points has ITS OWN accuracy! - Chris from Lafayette 20:46:04 09/7/19 (1)

"So. . . whence with your "three dimensional acoustic sound wave [singular]?" - Analog Scott 13:34:14 09/8/19 (0)

Scott, your perfectionist standards for accuracy aren't really relevant - Chris from Lafayette 01:19:14 09/6/19 (9)

RE: Scott, your perfectionist standards for accuracy aren't really relevant - Analog Scott 05:58:55 09/6/19 (8)

I'm afraid my experience with classic mono jazz recordings. . . - Chris from Lafayette 14:05:32 09/6/19 (7)

RE: I'm afraid my experience with classic mono jazz recordings. . . - Analog Scott 14:51:31 09/6/19 (6)

We use the word, "obvious", when we don't have actual arguments - Chris from Lafayette 15:19:53 09/6/19 (5)

OK I will rephrase it. - Analog Scott 15:54:34 09/6/19 (4)

Maybe your aural memories are vague, but mine are not ;-) - Chris from Lafayette 01:26:47 09/7/19 (3)

Right, who should I believe science or Chris????? - Analog Scott 13:19:05 09/7/19 (2)

You flatter yourself if you think your opinions are science - Chris from Lafayette 19:15:09 09/7/19 (1)

RE: You flatter yourself if you think your opinions are science - Analog Scott 09:36:40 09/8/19 (0)

Nope - Tre' 21:05:31 09/5/19 (17)

"the key word "ears" - Analog Scott 22:28:08 09/5/19 (6)

No, the key word is accuracy (aka the "fidelity" in "high fidelity" - Chris from Lafayette 14:21:09 09/6/19 (5)

Accuracy to what you think you remember live sound sounds like - Analog Scott 14:53:19 09/6/19 (4)

So, Scott, you're demanding that memories be measured? - Chris from Lafayette 15:25:25 09/6/19 (3)

No, I am saying they don't work as a reference for any meaningful idea of accuracy because they can't - Analog Scott 13:24:16 09/7/19 (2)

Whoah! Now you sound like an objectivist! - Chris from Lafayette 19:18:26 09/7/19 (1)

LOL I am the objectivists' worst nightmare - Analog Scott 13:53:24 09/8/19 (0)

I have two friends that are stone deaf in one ear and the ... - Tre' 21:22:12 09/5/19 (9)

RE: I have two friends that are stone deaf in one ear and the ... - Analog Scott 22:29:40 09/5/19 (8)

Chris said it better than I - Tre' 06:36:59 09/6/19 (7)

This is a discussion about **accuracy** - Analog Scott 08:09:21 09/6/19 (6)

RE: This is a discussion about **accuracy** - Tre' 09:23:00 09/6/19 (5)

"Yes, but that is not what matters." - Analog Scott 11:15:32 09/6/19 (4)

When you say things such as. . . - Chris from Lafayette 14:48:44 09/6/19 (3)

You need to pay closer attention to what i am actually saying.. - Analog Scott 13:27:35 09/7/19 (2)

Maybe YOU need to study what you've been saying - Chris from Lafayette 19:43:00 09/7/19 (1)

RE: Maybe YOU need to study what you've been saying - Analog Scott 13:39:39 09/8/19 (0)

Easy! You can compare it when it comes out the other end. . . - Chris from Lafayette 16:05:48 09/5/19 (3)

That's not going to work at all - Analog Scott 17:18:54 09/5/19 (2)

Not 2-6 speakers - A 7.2.1 system is. . . 10 speakers in, yes, three dimensions - Chris from Lafayette 00:34:08 09/6/19 (1)

RE: Not 2-6 speakers - A 7.2.1 system is. . . 10 speakers in, yes, three dimensions - Analog Scott 06:00:09 09/6/19 (0)

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