RE: Maybe for the same sort of reason some prefer tube amps

Posted by morricab (S) on August 16, 2023 at 01:42:29

In Reply to: Maybe for the same sort of reason some prefer tube amps posted by Feanor on August 15, 2023 at 08:01:18:

The best tube amps sound MORE pure because your ear/brain DOES NOT hear the distortion. It hides in the blindspots of your auditory system.

The class D amps, however low their distortion might be, is of the type that doesn't happen to "hide" in the ear/brain auditory self distortion/masking.

Now, it is true that very few will adhere to this ideal or close enough not to have a possibly strong character.

It is wrong though, to assume that the distortions produced by Class D amps are not having their own character. The same is true for ultra low distortion Class AB or Class A amps.

Cheever hypothesizes that it is the amps INHERENT linearity that matters more for sonics. By this he means the distortion an amp would make WITHOUT a negative feedback loop in place. So, for a SET amp without feedback the distortion is the distortion. But for a high feedback amp, the distortion made without the feedback loop would be orders of magnitude higher than with the feedback loop and highly (horribly) audible. He shows and example in his thesis of a Hafler DH500, which even today, measures quite good. He comes up with a bypass for the feedback and without the amp measures 25% and mostly high order harmonics.

If he is right, and I am not saying for sure that he is, it could still explain why supposedly inaudible distortion amps still have distinct character. Crowhurst hypothesized that what is happening dynamically (Otala also went down this road) is very different from the static measurements. He also mentions the fake noise floor created by high feedback amps.

I have heard some of the best measuring amps on the planet and they almost invariably sound cold, lean, analytical and tonally threadbare...as compared to what I hear in live, unamplified instruments in space. Harmonic texture is lost. Decay in space, lost.

Am I to believe then that so many recordings are this poor as to be such terrible facsimiles to reality? Am I to believe that a good SET or occasionally push/pull tube amp is recreating information that is not on the recording and by lucky chance it just so happens to sound more like the real thing? That would be some coincidence, no?

Haven't you wondered why ancient technology in audio refuses to die? No one (well almost) is wishing for a 1920s Model T Ford vs. a modern car (take away collectors and consider only users). No one says, "I sure wish I had my old tube TV back" compared to a modern Sony OLED TV. It is immediately and obviously better. Other than tinkerers, no one wants an old computer to do actual work

And yet, some of the most convincing loudspeakers I have ever heard were from the 1930s cinema (Western Electric and Siemens), using field coils for the magnets and 1 or 2 watt amps. The most convincing modern speakers I have heard were also horn, inheriting the legacy (Living Voice, Aries Cerat, Acapella). The most convincing amps are from the earliest concepts but with modern execution (some things HAVE improved with time), namely SET amps and some smaller PP tube amps/OTLs.

There must be reasons that these are not on the dustbin of technology like tube TVs, VCRs, etc. It's not nostalgia (there are some collectors of old tech for that reason but it is very niche). Tubes and now more and more horns are in the mainstream of audiophile land. They are not niche. There are poor sounding products that prey upon that trend, so finding what is good and what is not is sometimes tricky (especially when flooded with cheap, and sometimes great, sometimes not, Asian products).

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Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - Class D vs. class AB amps - Mike K 07:52:01 08/15/23 (54)

Don't forget ADH Class - Freo-1 15:24:07 08/17/23 (14)

ADH is not a Class. It's marketing speak... - AbeCollins 05:27:16 08/18/23 (13)

Wrong - Freo-1 05:40:11 08/18/23 (12)

RE: Wrong - pictureguy 22:16:18 08/23/23 (1)

Well, It's not Class AB per se then - Freo-1 12:38:59 08/24/23 (0)

Amplifier Classes - AbeCollins 11:30:53 08/18/23 (1)

Why not call it a Class A/D amp? - Freo-1 12:20:35 08/18/23 (0)

" It's not Class D." - E-Stat 08:05:45 08/18/23 (7)

They don't differ at all. They acknowledge it's a unique class - Freo-1 08:30:14 08/18/23 (6)

Contrary to the manufacturer's own assertions... - E-Stat 08:39:06 08/18/23 (5)

Threshold Stasis Amps are great! - Freo-1 08:48:54 08/18/23 (4)

RE: Threshold Stasis Amps are great! - E-Stat 10:13:54 08/18/23 (3)

Semantics - Freo-1 10:33:33 08/18/23 (2)

"Assume they are trying to inform the public that the topology is unique." - E-Stat 11:44:26 08/19/23 (1)

Eh Bien - Freo-1 11:54:17 08/19/23 (0)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - KanedaK 20:53:20 08/16/23 (0)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - boogyman 13:18:43 08/16/23 (3)

What is your electric rate? - mlsstl 14:21:08 08/16/23 (2)

RE: What is your electric rate? - boogyman 15:58:07 08/16/23 (0)

RE: What is your electric rate? - Tre' 15:43:15 08/16/23 (0)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - cawson@onetel.com 11:37:18 08/16/23 (8)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - Chuck 04:47:30 08/17/23 (2)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - cawson@onetel.com 06:26:00 08/17/23 (1)

thank you! interesting (nt) - Chuck 10:53:52 08/17/23 (0)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - AbeCollins 13:06:29 08/16/23 (4)

Compared to Benchmark? - jimbill 09:22:34 08/17/23 (2)

Tough call. - AbeCollins 11:59:50 08/17/23 (1)

RE: Tough call. - G Squared 12:55:04 08/17/23 (0)

I had an X150.5 just before my VTV Purifi - Feanor 04:24:22 08/17/23 (0)

Generalizations rarely work - G Squared 17:58:48 08/15/23 (3)

"All generalizations are false - including this one." ;) (nt) - mhardy6647 05:20:51 08/16/23 (2)

"Everything I say is a Lie." Capt Kirk. Should work against A.I. too.nt - oldmkvi 10:28:30 08/16/23 (1)

I believe he borrowed that from Epimenides (the Cretan) - mhardy6647 17:29:01 08/16/23 (0)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - John Elison 14:59:26 08/15/23 (0)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - Ozzy 11:04:41 08/15/23 (1)

Well stated. - Freo-1 11:14:56 08/15/23 (0)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - AbeCollins 08:06:37 08/15/23 (6)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - morricab 01:55:05 08/16/23 (5)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - John Elison 02:06:35 08/16/23 (4)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - morricab 04:53:25 08/16/23 (3)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - AbeCollins 12:54:13 08/16/23 (2)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - morricab 02:44:25 08/18/23 (1)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - AbeCollins 11:44:11 08/18/23 (0)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - Freo-1 08:01:42 08/15/23 (4)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - AbeCollins 08:13:45 08/15/23 (3)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - morricab 01:49:05 08/16/23 (2)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - AbeCollins 12:47:21 08/16/23 (1)

RE: Class D vs. class AB amps - morricab 02:38:37 08/18/23 (0)

Maybe for the same sort of reason some prefer tube amps - Feanor 08:01:18 08/15/23 (5)

RE: Maybe for the same sort of reason some prefer tube amps - morricab 08/16/2301:42:29 08/16/23 (2)

Morri, why not just be easier to admit you like tube distortion? - Feanor 05:06:06 08/16/23 (1)

RE: Morri, why not just be easier to admit you like tube distortion? - morricab 05:43:02 08/16/23 (0)

RE: Maybe for the same sort of reason some prefer tube amps - Ozzy 11:06:51 08/15/23 (1)

RE: Maybe for the same sort of reason some prefer tube amps - hahax@verizon.net 21:15:17 08/15/23 (0)

Follow Ups

RE: Maybe for the same sort of reason some prefer tube amps - morricab 08/16/2301:42:29 08/16/23 (2)

Morri, why not just be easier to admit you like tube distortion? - Feanor 05:06:06 08/16/23 (1)

RE: Morri, why not just be easier to admit you like tube distortion? - morricab 05:43:02 08/16/23 (0)

RE: Maybe for the same sort of reason some prefer tube amps

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