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Computer Audio Asylum: RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate by Tony Lauck Music servers and other computer based digital audio technologies. |
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In Reply to: RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate posted by AstroD on July 28, 2009 at 00:00:32:
"My basic theory now is that playback of higher res music has inherently less jitter and timing errors in absolute terms. And that's primarily why it sounds better on the average high-jitter playback system. It's NOT having more samples to work with."
I normally playback 44.1 kHz material by upsampling to 176.4 kHz as it sounds better that way to me. However, the results are not as good as playback of 88.1 material (or 176.4 material of which I have little). So I don't think differences in the playback chain account for the whole story.
I have done a simple test to isolate degradation due to format/conversion from degradation due to limitations of playback gear:
1. I started with a good sounding 88/24 recording in a first file. (I took care that the file has no peaks too close to 0 dBfs, so that the sample rate converters won't clip on an inter-sample peak.)
2. Using a high quality sample rate converter, I produced a second file in the 44/16 format from the first file.
3. Using a high quality sample rate converter, I produced a third file in the 88/24 format from the second file.
4. I then auditioned the first and third files, using the exact same hardware and software.
In this comparison, the only possible cause of an audible difference between the files comes from the limitations of the format itself and any weaknesses in the sample rate converter(s). I got good results using Izotope RX Advanced, with a setting that avoided any aliases or images above 22050 Hz, had relatively slow roll off and was minimum phase. However, on many recordings, especially the ones I judged to be best, the first and third files did not sound the same, although the differences were subtle.
(Note that if you do this test and do not hear a difference then it would be improper to conclude that 44/16 and your converters are transparent, just that they were transparent with the recordings tested, on your system, with your ears and with your present level of experience and concentration.)
Repeating the test using 44/24 for the second file produced similar results. Using 48/24 the results were less clear cut, as expected because the degradation will be less in both the frequency and time domains.
Before doing these tests I had been of the opinion that the bit depth accounted for much of the difference between hi-res and 44/16. After doing these tests, I no longer believe this is the case. In my opinion, most of the degradation due to 44/16 comes from the sampling rate and not the bit depth, at least with recordings that are fully utilizing the available 16 bits.
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Topic - 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Tony Lauck 19:26:14 07/26/09 ( 72)
- Have any of you read the Audio Critic Double/Blind study.... - deskducker 00:26:17 07/31/09 ( 36)
- Better duck under that desk; - Kristian 08:54:55 07/31/09 ( 35)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - deskducker 10:32:13 07/31/09 ( 34)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Kristian 10:52:43 07/31/09 ( 33)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Werner 22:46:23 07/31/09 ( 31)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Ryelands 04:35:48 08/1/09 ( 30)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 09:11:52 08/1/09 ( 29)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Ryelands 10:13:02 08/1/09 ( 28)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 20:01:03 08/1/09 ( 27)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Ryelands 06:00:31 08/2/09 ( 26)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Werner 06:48:18 08/2/09 ( 25)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Ryelands 07:16:17 08/2/09 ( 24)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 18:22:52 08/2/09 ( 23)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Ryelands 01:05:50 08/3/09 ( 22)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 04:06:20 08/3/09 ( 21)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Ryelands 04:40:30 08/3/09 ( 20)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 05:08:53 08/3/09 ( 19)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - riboge 07:56:07 08/3/09 ( 18)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 12:09:11 08/3/09 ( 17)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - riboge 14:42:51 08/3/09 ( 16)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 18:27:33 08/3/09 ( 15)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - riboge 19:46:06 08/3/09 ( 14)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 05:24:51 08/4/09 ( 0)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Ryelands 02:55:41 08/4/09 ( 12)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Tony Lauck 17:29:58 08/5/09 ( 0)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 05:05:49 08/4/09 ( 7)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - riboge 19:12:49 08/5/09 ( 4)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 19:46:58 08/5/09 ( 3)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - riboge 20:00:35 08/5/09 ( 2)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 03:56:22 08/6/09 ( 1)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - riboge 07:50:41 08/6/09 ( 0)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Tony Lauck 17:40:32 08/5/09 ( 1)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 19:17:37 08/5/09 ( 0)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Werner 04:13:36 08/4/09 ( 2)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Ryelands 07:59:20 08/5/09 ( 1)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Werner 23:19:23 08/5/09 ( 0)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Ryelands 06:26:29 08/10/09 ( 0)
- RE: Better duck under that desk; - Werner 06:50:25 08/10/09 ( 0)
RE: Better duck under that desk; - Phelonious Ponk 18:15:04 07/31/09 ( 0)
RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Werner 07:44:51 07/29/09 ( 14)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Ryelands 09:11:05 07/29/09 ( 12)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Tony Lauck 10:41:27 07/29/09 ( 11)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Werner 13:04:49 07/29/09 ( 10)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Tony Lauck 14:52:26 07/29/09 ( 9)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Werner 22:40:02 07/29/09 ( 8)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Ryelands 02:29:20 07/30/09 ( 7)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Werner 04:09:24 07/30/09 ( 6)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Tony Lauck 08:57:45 07/30/09 ( 3)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Werner 09:53:13 07/30/09 ( 1)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Tony Lauck 13:47:57 07/30/09 ( 0)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Phelonious Ponk 09:16:45 07/30/09 ( 0)
- I second the agreement... - Phelonious Ponk 07:48:46 07/30/09 ( 0)
- Completely agree with you. nt - drrd 07:03:18 07/30/09 ( 0)
RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Tony Lauck 09:04:11 07/29/09 ( 0)
Temporal resolution and RBCD - cics 13:22:50 07/28/09 ( 1)
- RE: Temporal resolution and RBCD - Ryelands 04:37:17 07/29/09 ( 0)
RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Phelonious Ponk 09:51:02 07/28/09 ( 6)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Ryelands 11:09:45 07/28/09 ( 3)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Phelonious Ponk 11:06:06 07/29/09 ( 0)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - secretsquirrel 03:57:11 12/4/09 ( 0)
- Get out while you still have time! - Ryelands 06:50:55 12/4/09 ( 0)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Phelonious Ponk 06:42:30 07/29/09 ( 0)
RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Phelonious Ponk 21:14:20 07/28/09 ( 0)
RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Tony Lauck 10:34:26 07/28/09 ( 1)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Phelonious Ponk 21:20:55 07/28/09 ( 0)
RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Ryelands 03:01:40 07/28/09 ( 0)
This is silly - audiozorro 09:05:51 07/27/09 ( 0)
RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - mls-stl 20:11:35 07/26/09 ( 8)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - drrd 03:27:22 07/27/09 ( 7)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - AstroD 00:00:32 07/28/09 ( 5)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - joeljoel1947 09:01:16 07/29/09 ( 0)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - Tony Lauck 07/28/09 07:51:15 07/28/09 ( 3)
- another interesting test - Werner 22:45:55 07/29/09 ( 1)
- RE: another interesting test - Tony Lauck 07:16:45 07/30/09 ( 0)
- RE: 44.1 kHz shown scientifically to be inadequate - AstroD 16:33:02 07/28/09 ( 0)
"It's not really that obvious" - mls-stl 10:53:45 07/27/09 ( 0)