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Hi-Rez Highway: Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones by Jean-Marie Geijsen New high resolution SACD releases, players and technology. |
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In Reply to: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... posted by music@waterlilyacoustics.com on July 28, 2005 at 01:37:36:
A couple of remarks about what you said.“Both types are a compromiseâ€, you are referring to ribbons and condenser mic’s I believe, and if so, yes you are right. But every microphone is a compromise.
“Condenser mic’s are prone to capsule resonanceâ€, yes you are right again, but to be more correct, every microphone, ribbon, coil or condenser mic, is prone to capsule resonance.
A more interesting question is where this resonance is located. For omnidirectional condenser microphones like the DPA 4006 or Schoeps mk2(s) this resonance is somewhere close or even above 20 kHz. (I do not consider a U47 to be a real omni since it is a far to complex microphone not suitable for a main pick-up and does certainly not match the modern omni microphones like the ones I just mentioned ). For directional microphones like the Pearl ELM 30, this resonance is located at the low midrange, around 200 Hz. This capsule resonance acts like the before mentioned LP filter. So to check what microphone has the most pronounced capsule resonance we can do a simple test. Please check your ribbon microphone if it suffers from handling noise, then do the same with a DPA 4006 or any other high quality condenser omni. From experience I can tell you that the DPA 4006 is free of any handling noise. This means that the capsule resonance is hardly an issue. I do not know if the same applies to your preferred Pearl ELM 30, but your main microphone is probably always installed in a shockmount, to absorb handling noise and rumble.
You also state that “often condenser microphones have some EQ build inâ€. I can tell you that I do not now any condenser microphone in our studio which has a EQ build in, also not hidden inside. We have about 200 Schoeps DPA and Neumann microphones, which I all have measured. The electronics only convert the appr. 1 GigaOhm capsule load down to a user-friendlier 50-200 Ohm output impedance.Funny that you mention the transient behaviour of your microphone. Have you ever tried to record a square wave with a directional microphone and compared that to the output of an omni? Any directional microphone will show a nice transient as a result of an acoustic pressure step from 0 to 1, but will return to zero immediately after the transient has past, although the acoustic pressure input is still at 1. When the acoustic pressure drops again from 1 to 0, the directional microphone will again give a nice transient response, but from 0 to –1 !! When looking at the output from the omni: it will rise from 0 to 1, stay at 1 for as long as it needs, and drops down from 1 to 0 when it has to.
I will not mention the implications of this transient behaviour on the phase response of any directional microphone.I must say that I find the membrane construction of the Pearl EML 30 really interesting. But due to its rectangular shape it will have a very unusual pick up pattern. In the horizontal plane it will behave like a figure of 8 should, but in the vertical plane it will behave completely different. In the vertical plane this microphone acts like an line pick up and as a result you will have a very coloured off-axis diffuse sound-field pick up including a comb-filter starting at 4.5 kHz upwards. This is truly a directional microphone and I can imagine some situations where this behaviour is welcome, but this is hardly the pick up (and sound colour) I would choose for my main microphone set-up.
A have nothings against the fact that you like the sound of the microphone, even when you say that this microphone delivers exactly the sound you hear in a concert hall, but I can also imagine that there are people who do not agree with you, and the physics prove them to be right.
I must admit that there is one aspect where the crossed fig of 8 excels compared to other microphone set-ups and that is pin-point stereo image accuracy (if you sit exactly on the sweet spot), but is this the most important aspect of a recording? I believe perfect inner balance and tonal balance to be much more important for the music then the question if the flute is situated 10 degrees left to the centre, or was it 15 degrees?
Jean-Marie Geijsen
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Topic - WARNING! Sad to say I am very disappointed in the new Water Lily Acoustic SACD - Teresa 20:47:06 07/19/05 ( 80)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - Jean-Marie Geijsen 13:17:25 07/27/05 ( 11)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - regreene 14:48:46 07/29/05 ( 4)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - Jean-Marie Geijsen 17:59:09 07/30/05 ( 1)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - regreene 20:24:58 07/30/05 ( 0)
- REG I have just one question ... - Teresa 00:43:39 07/30/05 ( 1)
- Re: REG I have just one question ... - regreene 09:10:56 07/30/05 ( 0)
Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 01:37:36 07/28/05 ( 5)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones - Jean-Marie Geijsen 07/28/05 13:21:38 07/28/05 ( 4)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 21:18:03 07/28/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 17:32:15 07/28/05 ( 2)
- Re: I've heard the some... - unclestu52 21:56:40 07/28/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 23:09:29 07/28/05 ( 0)
Re: WARNING! - BS 20:01:35 07/22/05 ( 0)
Waterlily recordings - regreene 09:55:36 07/21/05 ( 42)
- Re: Waterlily recordings - Chris from Lafayette 21:11:22 07/22/05 ( 31)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 00:47:44 07/23/05 ( 30)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings - Chris from Lafayette 11:04:27 07/23/05 ( 29)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 11:41:12 07/23/05 ( 28)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 13:39:43 07/23/05 ( 27)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings - Chris from Lafayette 17:06:12 07/23/05 ( 26)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 18:59:13 07/23/05 ( 25)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 22:09:50 07/23/05 ( 24)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 02:14:51 07/24/05 ( 23)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings - Chris from Lafayette 12:10:31 07/24/05 ( 22)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 23:06:33 07/24/05 ( 10)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 07:06:06 07/25/05 ( 1)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 01:00:36 07/26/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 07:05:23 07/25/05 ( 7)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 00:51:32 07/26/05 ( 6)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 16:14:42 07/26/05 ( 5)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 23:56:13 07/26/05 ( 1)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - regreene 11:14:58 08/1/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 19:56:41 07/26/05 ( 2)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 23:52:38 07/26/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 10:36:26 07/27/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 17:05:07 07/24/05 ( 10)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 19:11:06 07/24/05 ( 6)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 22:40:40 07/24/05 ( 5)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 00:45:52 07/26/05 ( 0)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 08:47:06 07/25/05 ( 3)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 10:18:50 07/25/05 ( 2)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 01:04:49 07/26/05 ( 0)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 00:39:25 07/26/05 ( 0)
- "The dog may bark, but the caravan moves on..." - Great quote! Dave555 18:04:39 07/24/05 ( 2)
- killer set- Sufi Soul - tunenut 22:15:47 07/24/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 21:09:04 07/24/05 ( 1)
legality and morality - tunenut 09:23:03 07/22/05 ( 0)
The SKRYABIN / SVETLANOV Water Lily SACD is a sonic travisty and a slap in the face to anyone who loves realistic sound! - Teresa 19:26:11 07/21/05 ( 8)
- Re: The SKRYABIN / SVETLANOV Water Lily SACD is a sonic travisty and a slap in the face to anyone who loves realistic so - dmeinwald 09:24:22 07/23/05 ( 2)
- Brahms No. 1 with Artur Rubinstein, Fritz Reiner and the CSO on RCA LSC SACD - Teresa 17:40:06 07/23/05 ( 1)
- what about the lack of low frequency response on the Svetlanov? - Teresa 11:14:00 07/23/05 ( 1)
Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 16:43:53 07/22/05 ( 4)
- Hi Kavi, I have always loved and been a big supporter of Water Lily Acoustic Recordings - Teresa 20:15:04 07/22/05 ( 0)
This happens to nerdy folks who buy music based on the - Kristian85 09:22:00 07/21/05 ( 0)
Theresa, different listening positioning may be necessary - jim nj 09:04:53 07/20/05 ( 1)
- Teresa, sorry about extra h in above name! (nt) - jim nj 09:14:01 07/20/05 ( 0)
Thanks, and reading things like this..... - Sordidman 08:47:59 07/20/05 ( 1)
- he's not right - tunenut 09:32:01 07/20/05 ( 0)
umm yeah... my experience is completley reverse of yours... - danny kaey 20:55:36 07/19/05 ( 18)
- Great - We can have Dueling Reviews! - Chris from Lafayette 23:16:26 07/19/05 ( 13)
- Re: Great - We can have even more Dueling Reviews! - raffells 01:42:14 07/20/05 ( 12)
- About The Music? I Don't Feel That Is The Main Priority Here - Robertc88 03:46:59 07/20/05 ( 11)
- correct Robert, the music is excellent it's the recording quality that leaves me cold. - Teresa 08:13:11 07/20/05 ( 10)
- they are recorded correctly... - danny kaey 09:05:55 07/20/05 ( 9)
- I listen to orchestral music live and it has a solid bass foundation and lots of energy below 100Hz - Teresa 20:45:25 07/20/05 ( 8)
- again, my experience is the exact opposite... - danny kaey 21:51:15 07/20/05 ( 7)
- Agreed. - Kal Rubinson 05:42:06 07/21/05 ( 0)
- perhaps there's 2 versions of this Water Lily SACD? - Teresa 23:26:51 07/20/05 ( 5)
- Re: perhaps there's 2 versions of this Water Lily SACD? - Kal Rubinson 08:46:14 07/21/05 ( 4)
- I tried playing really loud through speakers and even though my Sennheiser HD580 headphones. - Teresa 19:31:08 07/21/05 ( 3)
- you can very well derive proper MCH from a 2ch 2mic recording... - danny kaey 20:56:53 07/22/05 ( 0)
- Your headphone rig sucks - BS 15:02:39 07/22/05 ( 0)
- Re: I tried playing really loud through speakers and even though my Sennheiser HD580 headphones. - Kal Rubinson 04:34:57 07/22/05 ( 0)
Attention all registered posters: E-mail me to listen to this SACD free, we will do like the Blues In Orbit SACD - Teresa 21:48:55 07/19/05 ( 3)
- Re: Attention all registered posters: E-mail me to listen to this SACD free, we will do like the Blues In Orbit SACD - cf@tiscali.se 09:44:04 07/31/05 ( 2)
- Hi Chris click on the "A" after my name and you will go the page to submit email. - Teresa 17:38:12 08/4/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 17:58:16 08/5/05 ( 0)