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Hi-Rez Highway: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... by music@waterlilyacoustics.com New high resolution SACD releases, players and technology. |
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In Reply to: Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings posted by Chris from Lafayette on July 24, 2005 at 12:10:31:
YOU started all this nonsense, not I. You in effect attacked my credibility in a public forum on an issue on which many others, including some experts, have a contrary view/opinion. You have the right to criticise and I have the right to defend myself. I do not agree with you but will simply state my case.
What I have stated from the begining and made very clear, is that the "reality" that Water Lily captures is determined by me and thus my "view". I do hold however, that our view is valid as it is based on a theoratical model that is very sound.
You may know all this, but I am sure that there are some readers who will benefit from the information to be outlined below. The spaced omni mike technique was born out of the research done at Bell Labs in the 20s. Their experiments with Stoky and The Philadelphia Orchestra, wherin rows of mikes placed before the orchesta were in turn linked to corresponding speakers, showed that in effect the same resuls could be achived with just three spaced omni mikes. This "wall of sound" technique was then pioneered by Bert at Everst and addopted by Mercury, Command and much later Telarc. The Bell Labs model was to place the three mikes very close to the orchestra, thus avoiding much reflected sound pick up and then play back the recording in a large, live room, allowing the speaker/room acoustical interaction to provide the "ambiance". The physical nature of this mike placement entails that sounds on the right will reach the right mike before the center and left mikes. So it will be for sound sources on the left. It is this time delay that prevents this mike technique from being able to create a stable stereo image with precise instumental localisation. These time delays also cause a phenomeon knowen as comb filer effects that will further color the sound. There are those who argue that since onmi mikes are in effect directional in the high frequancies (a fact) that the three spaced omni technique can yeild stable, precise images. I have yet to hear this miracle!
The genius of Blumlein is that he realised that the recordeing should capture and presrve the spatial/ambiant information as well. Further, in his mike arrangment, wherein two figure-of-eight mikes are placed coincidentaly, both mikes sample all sounds at the same point in space and thus are phase and amplitude coherent, yeilding precise stereo images and accurate instumantal localisation.
Mercury may not have EQed nor compressed (except for the medium itself doing it) while recording, but they certainly EQed and compressed while mastering the LP. And I am not reffering to the mandatory RIAA EQ required for LP mastering. Also keep in mind that the German tube mikes they (RCA, Decca and EMI as well) used were far from being flat. Thus, this would have to be considerd a form of EQ as well. To this day some of these tube mikes are highly sought after by the pop studios, as they produce a "fat" warm sound that "enhances" the vocals of the popular "divas". The BBC designed Coles ribbon mikes on the other hand are far more nutral and flatter than any of these tube mikes.
Yes, EMI did use the classic Blumlein technique for a very, very short time. (There is an interview forthcoming in TAS wherein I go into all this in great depth and detail.) I have always preferred the EMI "house sound", even after they had abandoned the Blumlein technique. To me the EMI sound was closer to the real thing than that on any Mercury, RCA or Decca recording.
And yes, I will be the first to admit that no recording is "perfect" (limits of technology) and is an exact replica of the musical reality, but some recorings do come convinsingly close. To my ears those recordings are the ones done with coincident and near coincident mike techniques.
As for listeners who have extraordinary pinna structures and are "wired" in such a way, so as to hear "pin point" stereo images from spaced omni recordings, I can only say that not having mastered hyper dimentional physics, this rarefied subject is way out of my league and will have to be reffered to the experts at Area 51. Please drive out into the Nevada desert with Teresa... who knows, you just might hear the sound of "one hand slapping"!
I refuse to comment further on the layout/artwork issue as it is not really germane to the subject at hand.
Again, not having mastered Latin I must revert to the Sufi tradition that I am familer with for my quote: "The dog may bark, but the caravan moves on..." KAVI.
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Topic - WARNING! Sad to say I am very disappointed in the new Water Lily Acoustic SACD - Teresa 20:47:06 07/19/05 ( 80)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - Jean-Marie Geijsen 13:17:25 07/27/05 ( 11)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - regreene 14:48:46 07/29/05 ( 4)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - Jean-Marie Geijsen 17:59:09 07/30/05 ( 1)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - regreene 20:24:58 07/30/05 ( 0)
- REG I have just one question ... - Teresa 00:43:39 07/30/05 ( 1)
- Re: REG I have just one question ... - regreene 09:10:56 07/30/05 ( 0)
Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 01:37:36 07/28/05 ( 5)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones - Jean-Marie Geijsen 13:21:38 07/28/05 ( 4)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 21:18:03 07/28/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 17:32:15 07/28/05 ( 2)
- Re: I've heard the some... - unclestu52 21:56:40 07/28/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 23:09:29 07/28/05 ( 0)
Re: WARNING! - BS 20:01:35 07/22/05 ( 0)
Waterlily recordings - regreene 09:55:36 07/21/05 ( 42)
- Re: Waterlily recordings - Chris from Lafayette 21:11:22 07/22/05 ( 31)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 00:47:44 07/23/05 ( 30)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings - Chris from Lafayette 11:04:27 07/23/05 ( 29)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 11:41:12 07/23/05 ( 28)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 13:39:43 07/23/05 ( 27)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings - Chris from Lafayette 17:06:12 07/23/05 ( 26)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 18:59:13 07/23/05 ( 25)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 22:09:50 07/23/05 ( 24)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 02:14:51 07/24/05 ( 23)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings - Chris from Lafayette 12:10:31 07/24/05 ( 22)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 23:06:33 07/24/05 ( 10)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 07:06:06 07/25/05 ( 1)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 01:00:36 07/26/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 07:05:23 07/25/05 ( 7)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 00:51:32 07/26/05 ( 6)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 16:14:42 07/26/05 ( 5)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 23:56:13 07/26/05 ( 1)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - regreene 11:14:58 08/1/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 19:56:41 07/26/05 ( 2)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 23:52:38 07/26/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 10:36:26 07/27/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 07/24/05 17:05:07 07/24/05 ( 10)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 19:11:06 07/24/05 ( 6)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 22:40:40 07/24/05 ( 5)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 00:45:52 07/26/05 ( 0)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 08:47:06 07/25/05 ( 3)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 10:18:50 07/25/05 ( 2)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 01:04:49 07/26/05 ( 0)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 00:39:25 07/26/05 ( 0)
- "The dog may bark, but the caravan moves on..." - Great quote! Dave555 18:04:39 07/24/05 ( 2)
- killer set- Sufi Soul - tunenut 22:15:47 07/24/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 21:09:04 07/24/05 ( 1)
legality and morality - tunenut 09:23:03 07/22/05 ( 0)
The SKRYABIN / SVETLANOV Water Lily SACD is a sonic travisty and a slap in the face to anyone who loves realistic sound! - Teresa 19:26:11 07/21/05 ( 8)
- Re: The SKRYABIN / SVETLANOV Water Lily SACD is a sonic travisty and a slap in the face to anyone who loves realistic so - dmeinwald 09:24:22 07/23/05 ( 2)
- Brahms No. 1 with Artur Rubinstein, Fritz Reiner and the CSO on RCA LSC SACD - Teresa 17:40:06 07/23/05 ( 1)
- what about the lack of low frequency response on the Svetlanov? - Teresa 11:14:00 07/23/05 ( 1)
Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 16:43:53 07/22/05 ( 4)
- Hi Kavi, I have always loved and been a big supporter of Water Lily Acoustic Recordings - Teresa 20:15:04 07/22/05 ( 0)
This happens to nerdy folks who buy music based on the - Kristian85 09:22:00 07/21/05 ( 0)
Theresa, different listening positioning may be necessary - jim nj 09:04:53 07/20/05 ( 1)
- Teresa, sorry about extra h in above name! (nt) - jim nj 09:14:01 07/20/05 ( 0)
Thanks, and reading things like this..... - Sordidman 08:47:59 07/20/05 ( 1)
- he's not right - tunenut 09:32:01 07/20/05 ( 0)
umm yeah... my experience is completley reverse of yours... - danny kaey 20:55:36 07/19/05 ( 18)
- Great - We can have Dueling Reviews! - Chris from Lafayette 23:16:26 07/19/05 ( 13)
- Re: Great - We can have even more Dueling Reviews! - raffells 01:42:14 07/20/05 ( 12)
- About The Music? I Don't Feel That Is The Main Priority Here - Robertc88 03:46:59 07/20/05 ( 11)
- correct Robert, the music is excellent it's the recording quality that leaves me cold. - Teresa 08:13:11 07/20/05 ( 10)
- they are recorded correctly... - danny kaey 09:05:55 07/20/05 ( 9)
- I listen to orchestral music live and it has a solid bass foundation and lots of energy below 100Hz - Teresa 20:45:25 07/20/05 ( 8)
- again, my experience is the exact opposite... - danny kaey 21:51:15 07/20/05 ( 7)
- Agreed. - Kal Rubinson 05:42:06 07/21/05 ( 0)
- perhaps there's 2 versions of this Water Lily SACD? - Teresa 23:26:51 07/20/05 ( 5)
- Re: perhaps there's 2 versions of this Water Lily SACD? - Kal Rubinson 08:46:14 07/21/05 ( 4)
- I tried playing really loud through speakers and even though my Sennheiser HD580 headphones. - Teresa 19:31:08 07/21/05 ( 3)
- you can very well derive proper MCH from a 2ch 2mic recording... - danny kaey 20:56:53 07/22/05 ( 0)
- Your headphone rig sucks - BS 15:02:39 07/22/05 ( 0)
- Re: I tried playing really loud through speakers and even though my Sennheiser HD580 headphones. - Kal Rubinson 04:34:57 07/22/05 ( 0)
Attention all registered posters: E-mail me to listen to this SACD free, we will do like the Blues In Orbit SACD - Teresa 21:48:55 07/19/05 ( 3)
- Re: Attention all registered posters: E-mail me to listen to this SACD free, we will do like the Blues In Orbit SACD - cf@tiscali.se 09:44:04 07/31/05 ( 2)
- Hi Chris click on the "A" after my name and you will go the page to submit email. - Teresa 17:38:12 08/4/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 17:58:16 08/5/05 ( 0)