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In Reply to: Waterlily recordings posted by regreene on July 21, 2005 at 09:55:36:
Robert,Thanks for posting – it’s always interesting to read the views of an insider on a controversial topic such as the quality of the latest series of Water Lily recordings. These spirited discussions certainly add spice to life!
I think some of your comments however may have been based on a hasty reading of my original post concerning the Max Wilcox / Teldec production of the Mehta / NY Philharmonic recording of Mahler’s Fifth Symphony. In addition, I have some other questions and comments, and I guess the most logical way to post them is to place them in the context of your original comments. So here goes:
“There are two different ways to judge a recording. One is to go in with a preconceived idea of what music sounds like or ought to sound like.
“The other, to my mind right way is to look for recordings that are reflecting reality correctly.â€
Whoah! I think you’ve just loaded the dice. You mean to say that you do NOT have a preconceived notion of what the music ought to sound like? I’d guess that your idea of what the music ought to sound like would be based on YOUR perception (based in turn on your listening position in the hall) of the actual performances, but I’m certainly willing to be disabused of this notion.
“The truth is that the Waterlily Svetlanov/Skryabin recording and the other two recent Waterlily (SA)CDs are recordings of reality.
“Perhaps any one person may not like the reality that was there, but it is still the reality.â€
I hope you’ll bear with me, but let’s do a little thought experiment here. Can you imagine several realities, one from where the conductor stands, another from a position a few feet away from the orchestra, another from a position midway back in the hall, and a fourth from way in the back of the hall. Which reality are you talking about? Can you imagine the reality of a position in the hall where the balance among the orchestra sections is wildly askew (vs. the reality at another position)? How bad would the reality have to be until it was not worth attempting to replicate on a recording?
[snip]. . . “the microphone position where this reality was happening was carefully chosen.â€
I’d suggest that on your next recording project, you folks choose your microphone position a lot more carefully than you did on this one.
“A recording made with 8(or more) spaced-out microphones a la Wilcox may sound nice to some people, but it cannot sound real.â€
Here’s where I think your reading of my original post was hasty. I don’t think anyone implied that the Wilcox recording sounded “niceâ€. (“Not entirely successful†was my actual phrase.) The point of my posting Wilcox’s comments (“early sound reflections from the rear of the stage favor the projection of the brass and percussion thus causing problems with the strings and windsâ€) was that this was exactly the type of sound I hear on the Water Lily Mahler Fifth. After all, if the reality was that there were indeed early reflections favoring the brass and percussion, I guess you can be proud that you’ve captured it, but you shouldn’t be surprised when some listeners aren’t impressed.
“There is no process in practice or in theory that can put the outputs of a lot spaced microphones together into a coherent reality.â€
I’m confused here by your use of “a lotâ€. How many is “a lotâ€? Can it be as many as six? I believe that was the number used in the 1962 Reiner/Chicago Also sprach Zarathustra. To me, and, I daresay, to the majority of the readers of this board, that recording evokes a pretty darned coherent reality.
“A lot of record companies are in the business of making such mosaic recordings, in an effort to follow some notion or another of what a recording ought to sound like. These recordings NEVER sound like real music--they can't and they don't.â€
As I stated above, I’d love to know what your threshold for “a lot†of microphones is. Six microphones is certainly OK with me, whether or nor someone else describes that as a “mosaicâ€. The Reiner recording I referenced above sure does sound like “real music†to me!
“Waterlily has a different idea: recording reality.
“I personally think that the recorded reality is the only way to go.
It is the only thing that sounds like real music , and the higher the resolution of your audio system the more you will like it and the less you will like recordings made out of gluing together bits and pieces a la the Wilcox remarks.â€Wilcox did not make any remarks about “gluing together bits and piecesâ€. However, another point of my quoting him was that he was probably using FEWER microphones than on most orchestral recordings made these days, even though his recording, as I mentioned, was “not entirely successfulâ€.
“Those recordings sound not much more like a real thing than say the Beach Boys left/center/right mutiltrackers. The ear/brain is not easily led astray. It is not only not nice to fool Mother Nature, it is usually impossible.â€
I think that while Wilcox’s use of eight microphones may not have been optimal, it’s absurd to equate his techniques with those used for the Beach Boys. You undermine your own credibility here.
[snip]. . . “If you are interested in these recordings, please buy them. I think you will be happy you did.â€
I did you one better: I bought TWO copies of the Water Lily Mahler Fifth, one CD-only and one SACD. While the SACD has (as expected) better definition at the mid and low frequencies than the CD, it has the same general flaws as the CD. Sure, it’s got coherence and consistency, but those are not the only elements of musical reality. In my eleven years of music reviewing for the Palo Alto Times, San Francisco Chronicle, and Oakland Tribune, I did occasionally encounter performances whose reality included mal-adjusted balances among different sections of the orchestra. These are not the realities I would wish to have preserved on recordings.
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Topic - WARNING! Sad to say I am very disappointed in the new Water Lily Acoustic SACD - Teresa 20:47:06 07/19/05 ( 80)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - Jean-Marie Geijsen 13:17:25 07/27/05 ( 11)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - regreene 14:48:46 07/29/05 ( 4)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - Jean-Marie Geijsen 17:59:09 07/30/05 ( 1)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones: - regreene 20:24:58 07/30/05 ( 0)
- REG I have just one question ... - Teresa 00:43:39 07/30/05 ( 1)
- Re: REG I have just one question ... - regreene 09:10:56 07/30/05 ( 0)
Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 01:37:36 07/28/05 ( 5)
- Re: The reality of figure of 8 microphones - Jean-Marie Geijsen 13:21:38 07/28/05 ( 4)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 21:18:03 07/28/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 17:32:15 07/28/05 ( 2)
- Re: I've heard the some... - unclestu52 21:56:40 07/28/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 23:09:29 07/28/05 ( 0)
Re: WARNING! - BS 20:01:35 07/22/05 ( 0)
Waterlily recordings - regreene 09:55:36 07/21/05 ( 42)
- Re: Waterlily recordings - Chris from Lafayette 07/22/05 21:11:22 07/22/05 ( 31)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 00:47:44 07/23/05 ( 30)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings - Chris from Lafayette 11:04:27 07/23/05 ( 29)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 11:41:12 07/23/05 ( 28)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 13:39:43 07/23/05 ( 27)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings - Chris from Lafayette 17:06:12 07/23/05 ( 26)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 18:59:13 07/23/05 ( 25)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 22:09:50 07/23/05 ( 24)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 02:14:51 07/24/05 ( 23)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings - Chris from Lafayette 12:10:31 07/24/05 ( 22)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 23:06:33 07/24/05 ( 10)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 07:06:06 07/25/05 ( 1)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 01:00:36 07/26/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 07:05:23 07/25/05 ( 7)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 00:51:32 07/26/05 ( 6)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 16:14:42 07/26/05 ( 5)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 23:56:13 07/26/05 ( 1)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - regreene 11:14:58 08/1/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 19:56:41 07/26/05 ( 2)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 23:52:38 07/26/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 10:36:26 07/27/05 ( 0)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 17:05:07 07/24/05 ( 10)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 19:11:06 07/24/05 ( 6)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 22:40:40 07/24/05 ( 5)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 00:45:52 07/26/05 ( 0)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 08:47:06 07/25/05 ( 3)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 10:18:50 07/25/05 ( 2)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 01:04:49 07/26/05 ( 0)
- Re: Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - Chris from Lafayette 00:39:25 07/26/05 ( 0)
- "The dog may bark, but the caravan moves on..." - Great quote! Dave555 18:04:39 07/24/05 ( 2)
- killer set- Sufi Soul - tunenut 22:15:47 07/24/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 21:09:04 07/24/05 ( 1)
legality and morality - tunenut 09:23:03 07/22/05 ( 0)
The SKRYABIN / SVETLANOV Water Lily SACD is a sonic travisty and a slap in the face to anyone who loves realistic sound! - Teresa 19:26:11 07/21/05 ( 8)
- Re: The SKRYABIN / SVETLANOV Water Lily SACD is a sonic travisty and a slap in the face to anyone who loves realistic so - dmeinwald 09:24:22 07/23/05 ( 2)
- Brahms No. 1 with Artur Rubinstein, Fritz Reiner and the CSO on RCA LSC SACD - Teresa 17:40:06 07/23/05 ( 1)
- what about the lack of low frequency response on the Svetlanov? - Teresa 11:14:00 07/23/05 ( 1)
Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 16:43:53 07/22/05 ( 4)
- Hi Kavi, I have always loved and been a big supporter of Water Lily Acoustic Recordings - Teresa 20:15:04 07/22/05 ( 0)
This happens to nerdy folks who buy music based on the - Kristian85 09:22:00 07/21/05 ( 0)
Theresa, different listening positioning may be necessary - jim nj 09:04:53 07/20/05 ( 1)
- Teresa, sorry about extra h in above name! (nt) - jim nj 09:14:01 07/20/05 ( 0)
Thanks, and reading things like this..... - Sordidman 08:47:59 07/20/05 ( 1)
- he's not right - tunenut 09:32:01 07/20/05 ( 0)
umm yeah... my experience is completley reverse of yours... - danny kaey 20:55:36 07/19/05 ( 18)
- Great - We can have Dueling Reviews! - Chris from Lafayette 23:16:26 07/19/05 ( 13)
- Re: Great - We can have even more Dueling Reviews! - raffells 01:42:14 07/20/05 ( 12)
- About The Music? I Don't Feel That Is The Main Priority Here - Robertc88 03:46:59 07/20/05 ( 11)
- correct Robert, the music is excellent it's the recording quality that leaves me cold. - Teresa 08:13:11 07/20/05 ( 10)
- they are recorded correctly... - danny kaey 09:05:55 07/20/05 ( 9)
- I listen to orchestral music live and it has a solid bass foundation and lots of energy below 100Hz - Teresa 20:45:25 07/20/05 ( 8)
- again, my experience is the exact opposite... - danny kaey 21:51:15 07/20/05 ( 7)
- Agreed. - Kal Rubinson 05:42:06 07/21/05 ( 0)
- perhaps there's 2 versions of this Water Lily SACD? - Teresa 23:26:51 07/20/05 ( 5)
- Re: perhaps there's 2 versions of this Water Lily SACD? - Kal Rubinson 08:46:14 07/21/05 ( 4)
- I tried playing really loud through speakers and even though my Sennheiser HD580 headphones. - Teresa 19:31:08 07/21/05 ( 3)
- you can very well derive proper MCH from a 2ch 2mic recording... - danny kaey 20:56:53 07/22/05 ( 0)
- Your headphone rig sucks - BS 15:02:39 07/22/05 ( 0)
- Re: I tried playing really loud through speakers and even though my Sennheiser HD580 headphones. - Kal Rubinson 04:34:57 07/22/05 ( 0)
Attention all registered posters: E-mail me to listen to this SACD free, we will do like the Blues In Orbit SACD - Teresa 21:48:55 07/19/05 ( 3)
- Re: Attention all registered posters: E-mail me to listen to this SACD free, we will do like the Blues In Orbit SACD - cf@tiscali.se 09:44:04 07/31/05 ( 2)
- Hi Chris click on the "A" after my name and you will go the page to submit email. - Teresa 17:38:12 08/4/05 ( 1)
- Water Lily Russian Recordings and turning the other cheek.... - music@waterlilyacoustics.com 17:58:16 08/5/05 ( 0)