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Re: Thom, for us plain and simple guys...

HI Gregg,

There are several lines of thinking in this thread that I want to address, but first I want to thank you for helping me to stretch in order to better define the extreme points in this discussion - at least from my perspective. I've been trying to argue for sanity such as it were in this pursuit - to do whatever is reasonably possible and then to forget about everything and just sit back and enjoy the music. This thread points out to me that I need to add some "middle ground" comments to the FAQ's page, because folks might get the wrong idea that if you don't set up your rig (whatever brand) impeccably, that you might as well pack up your toys and go home crying. Obviously(?) this isn't so. One needs to have a life beyond audio and music. For everyone's benefit, I want to address your question about a sane solution first, and then rant on a bit with some background information.

A solution most likely lies at our feet, but has not to my knowledge been directly compared against floor standing, high mass stands like the ones Peter and I are using. Part of the problem lies with the fact that these turntables (Teres, Scheu, Platine Verdier, Redpoint, et. al) are all so good, that any anecdotal information you're likely to hear on this forum is virtually worthless because all of these 'tables will roll their perspective owners' socks up and down. It's really hard to make them sound so poorly as "very good". Unless an owner has tried numerous solutions, his reports are very much first person accounts - with them having stopped after their first try. Obviously, this is a good thing but it doesn't help someone who's looking for a "best" reasonable solution. Fortunately, your search is for a sane solution which addresses bouncy floors is not that hard, IMHO.

These concepts will evolve from continuing validation on our part, as well as contributors in this and other analog forums - perhaps with the guidance of divine providence and the suspension of the laws of physics. Seriously though, my bet is on a wall rack solution your solution for a Teres, Scheu, Redpoint, Verdier, etc. There's just no other way around it without loading up the pickup truck with a ton of material. One thing to consider in all of this is that the Quattro SE and Testa Rossa bases weigh in the neighborhood of 45 lbs. and our lightest platter - the PVC comes in at 19 lbs. Add about 9 lbs. for the motor pod and a few for the armboard and arm and you end up with the lightest Quattro SE configuration coming in at about 70 lbs. A full-blown Testa Rossa with our heaviest platter (45 lb) comes in at around 110 lbs which is in the Platine Verdier's weight class. I'm not sure how strong wall studs are from the perspective of supporting such a structure. With a bit of attention and overkill with the number of screws, a wall rack should be fine. If you have access to Sound Practices Magazine, issue #10 shows a picture of Dr. Goetz Wilimzig's Platine Verdier which he's wall mounted, so this is possible. Wilmizig is by all indications, an extreme individual so this lends further credibility to the wall mount solution.

Peter and I are fortunate to have ideal floors in our respective listening rooms - concrete. We're only now beginning to gather information about suboptimal placements such as that of my buddy Keith in his turn of the century house in central Denver for example (suspended hard pine floors). At VSAC, the floors in the Hotel Silverdale were suspended, and in comparison to concrete they were bouncy. They did not result in records skipping from foot falls in any of the rooms that I was in however, so we have not heard the other extreme from concrete.

All turntables (suspended or non suspended) will have problems with bouncy floors - to the extent that extreme measures aren't taken. By extreme, I mean loading up the floor with perhaps 1000 pounds, jacking the floor joists up from below, or perhaps installing a sophisticated air suspension system. With respect to the latter, I say perhaps, because I don't yet have personal experience of air systems like the Seismic Sink or Vibraplane. My good buddy Igor (who's ideas Jeremy has adapted - with his permission) is slowly converting the NJ Audiophile Society over to his silicone damped, tuned air bladder rigs. High rollers with a flotilla of Townsend sinks and such are cashing in their isolation rigs wholesale and moving to his solution. Perhaps Igor's is a "middle ground" solution. By middle ground, I mean in terms of space and mass, because it's not as obtrusive and can be placed on the top shelf of an ordinary rack.

With respect to my comments on suspended 'tables, a friend's AR ES-1 comes to mind. I want to re-emphasize that strictly from a bouncing floor perspective, a suspended turntable will not solve your problems. I think you know that as you've most likely seen numerous posts in this forum on siting Linns and such, but I wanted to re-emphasize this point. Where one might want an Oracle, an HW19, a Linn or whatever for other reasons, your selection of this architecture should not be predicated on resolving floor problems.

My friend's AR resembles a Linn in its suspension compliance, and this particular 'table had real problems with a bouncy floor in a cantilevered loft in his house in Northern California. A Target wall rack solved his problems very nicely. One has to realize that apart from my rants about suspension systems introducing speed problems, that they are a decent solution to low amplitude vibration filtering. When things get really rocking however, they oscillate and exacerbate rather than address the problem. To this extent, an unsuspended 'table will result in less skipping than a suspended one will on a bouncy floor.

Cheers,
Thom @ Redpoint




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