Propeller Head Plaza Technical and scientific discussion of amps, cables and other topics. |
|
In Reply to: RE: "...folks are a lot more convinced by what they experience than by what they read." posted by geoffkait on October 14, 2007 at 11:46:20:
"JA's response (in thread below on this forum) to my question regarding his positive reaction to a Belt product demo at the Hi Fi Show 1987 (which he now disavows):
"Not so much conned, but led by my own respect for those doing the demonstration. I am sure it was that and suggestion, to which I am no more immune than anyone else, but I honestly reported what I thought I perceived."
I hadn't seen this by John, but I appreciate it. I didn't know that he had ever admitted this kind of fallibility. To me, it's a good illustration of how it is possible to be deceived in these kinds of demonstrations despite the best of intentions. It's really hard too, when there's a whole room full of people nodding and talking volubly about the differences, to say that you don't hear any.
I became thick-skinned, or -skulled, enough to stand up for my perceptions in these situations fairly early. And there are many demos that have just hugely exceeded my credibility. I mean, when someone puts a two-ounce puck made of exotic wood on the front corner of a 250-pound speaker system, plays some music, and then repeats the demo with the puck turned 90 degrees to align the grain the other way, staring expectantly at the assembled throng... -- E. Brad
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - Hi-Res experimental details - EBradMeyer 13:10:32 10/12/07 (184)
- Scientific method and assumptions. - morricab 03:18:30 10/19/07 (6)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - EBradMeyer 06:25:07 10/20/07 (3)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - morricab 09:31:03 10/23/07 (0)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - morricab 08:11:56 10/23/07 (1)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - EBradMeyer 11:54:46 10/23/07 (0)
- "You have failed to address a basic question...Is there sufficient resolution to discrminate between..." - truthseekerprime 05:23:39 10/19/07 (1)
- RE: "You have failed to address a basic question...Is there sufficient resolution to discrminate between..." - Dan Banquer 07:16:11 10/19/07 (0)
- Please respond to this old post - Ole Lund Christensen 12:40:31 10/16/07 (36)
- Your comments are falling on deaf ears - E-Stat 07:24:42 10/17/07 (27)
- So your objection has morphed from doubting the conclusions to doubting the timing??? Talk about back-pedaling... /nt - truthseekerprime 14:48:38 10/17/07 (1)
- What part of my question - E-Stat 15:02:32 10/17/07 (0)
- I believe the kernel of the writers' purpose is stated by, "the CD standard is perfectly adequate". - clarkjohnsen 10:00:15 10/17/07 (24)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - EBradMeyer 06:45:50 10/20/07 (12)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - morricab 09:34:37 10/23/07 (0)
- RE: We have already specified exactly what the device was. - rick_m 13:19:05 10/20/07 (7)
- Check the BAS site - the info is there. /nt - truthseekerprime 10:40:20 10/23/07 (5)
- Thanks. - rick_m 13:53:25 10/23/07 (4)
- Do you mean, more discerning, because the quality is worse than it needs to be and yet still not audibly different? /nt - truthseekerprime 14:22:24 10/23/07 (3)
- Yes... - rick_m 16:51:53 10/23/07 (2)
- Out of curiosity, does the CD spec really say anything about dither? - truthseekerprime 04:44:38 10/24/07 (1)
- Don't know for sure... - rick_m 20:55:01 10/24/07 (0)
- Rotsa ruck! Doncha know, it sounds the same as *any* CD player. Take it from them. nt - clarkjohnsen 11:25:23 10/21/07 (0)
- "It won't hold up." That's good to know. Hey everybody! We're being told that CD players don't sound different! - clarkjohnsen 11:21:16 10/20/07 (2)
- RE: "It won't hold up." - EBradMeyer 12:00:32 10/23/07 (0)
- "That's what we want to know!" Maybe that's what _you_ want to know, but don't speak for anyone else. /nt - truthseekerprime 11:40:15 10/20/07 (0)
- By god, that's it!! They ignored polarity!!! No WONDER they couldn't hear any difference!!!! - truthseekerprime 14:47:11 10/17/07 (9)
- Also I see now, your sarcasm may also be read as in favor of phase-incoherent loudspeakers. - clarkjohnsen 10:04:48 10/18/07 (1)
- Sarcasm? What sarcasm? /nt - truthseekerprime 10:55:32 10/18/07 (0)
- It was #4 on the list, so I gather you've granted me the first three. - clarkjohnsen 09:54:43 10/18/07 (0)
- I believe you may have it!!!! But *note bene* that Orwellian spectacle! - tlyyra 16:34:26 10/17/07 (5)
- "some semblance (however imperfect!) of hoots-pah in presenting their, ah, "results"... - truthseekerprime 19:57:02 10/17/07 (1)
- RE: "a rather, err, wide target" - And not even a moving one. n/t - tlyyra 05:18:35 10/18/07 (0)
- Took you FIVE edits to get ... where? - Dave Pogue 18:52:40 10/17/07 (2)
- RE: "to get ... where?" - tlyyra 05:16:27 10/18/07 (1)
- RE: "to get ... where?" - Dave Pogue 06:40:57 10/18/07 (0)
- RE: "their hubris" - tlyyra 10:22:19 10/17/07 (0)
- RE: Please respond to this old post - EBradMeyer 14:49:49 10/16/07 (3)
- You are most welcome - Ole Lund Christensen 11:50:01 10/18/07 (2)
- RE: Your kind invitation - EBradMeyer 08:13:30 10/23/07 (0)
- Here are 4 different versions of the same piano recordings to download for blind testing - Ole Lund Christensen 12:37:52 10/18/07 (0)
- More info on Fairlight - Ole Lund Christensen 13:14:36 10/16/07 (3)
- "The album became a bestseller." What one was it? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:23:33 10/17/07 (2)
- RE: "The album became a bestseller." What one was it? nt - Ole Lund Christensen 11:58:31 10/18/07 (1)
- Something then of a, ah,,, record? nt - clarkjohnsen 13:05:39 10/18/07 (0)
- Three basics of blind tests ... Did this experiment get the basics right? ... Please tell me ( I don't think so) - Richard BassNut Greene 13:59:19 10/15/07 (51)
- RE: Three basics of blind tests ... Did this experiment get the basics right? ... Please tell me ( I don't - EBradMeyer 14:54:41 10/16/07 (1)
- "It is not, however, a requirement for anyone to report differences before the blind portion of the test" = ? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:53:45 10/18/07 (0)
- you might want to consider learning the actual basics of blind testing. nt - Analog Scott 22:55:30 10/15/07 (41)
- I must add that for a post with no words in it, the "nt" in the subject box must means "not thinking" - Richard BassNut Greene 09:32:26 10/16/07 (8)
- "must means?" Sarry yall I dunt speek hillbilly. nt - Analog Scott 14:06:21 10/16/07 (5)
- But you sure spell like one - AJinFLA 15:25:03 10/18/07 (2)
- Your greatest contribution to Prop head. finding typose and spellling errors. - Analog Scott 19:38:25 10/18/07 (1)
- :-) (nt) - AJinFLA 16:01:05 10/19/07 (0)
- This is your most intelligent post yet! - Richard BassNut Greene 10:20:26 10/18/07 (1)
- Apparently it's the only one you have understood. - Analog Scott 11:58:27 10/18/07 (0)
- Here's one more issue to consider.... - mkuller 10:20:08 10/16/07 (1)
- RE: Here's one more issue to consider.... - EBradMeyer 15:08:40 10/16/07 (0)
- I'm sure when YOU learn them, you'll include them in your post rather than giving us a post with not one word - Richard BassNut Greene 09:27:07 10/16/07 (6)
- perhaps you should take your own advice - Analog Scott 14:09:30 10/16/07 (4)
- RE: perhaps you should take your own advice - Pat D 07:15:22 10/17/07 (3)
- well.... - Analog Scott 10:48:51 10/17/07 (2)
- RE: well.... - Pat D 23:49:27 10/17/07 (1)
- It seems you missed my point - Analog Scott 12:00:59 10/18/07 (0)
- Richard please don't attempt humor... - bjh 10:03:30 10/16/07 (0)
- What a devastating blow. - Ugly 00:10:24 10/16/07 (24)
- AS ran out of hot air after only 12 words in the subject box (a new record for him?) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:35:05 10/16/07 (22)
- "what were you thinking?" - Analog Scott 14:29:53 10/16/07 (21)
- AS took a class and now knows how to cut and paste -- very good AS you get a gold star - Richard BassNut Greene 09:58:11 10/18/07 (1)
- You can lead a horse to water - Analog Scott 12:03:43 10/18/07 (0)
- RE: "what were you thinking?" - Pat D 23:48:13 10/17/07 (18)
- So you think the basics of DBTs are different for each? - Analog Scott 12:05:04 10/18/07 (17)
- You're so vague there's no point in me trying to figure out what you are failing to say. - Pat D 14:31:57 10/18/07 (16)
- Maybe his knowledge is vast but his writing is vague or perhaps his writing is clear but his knowledge is half-vast - Richard BassNut Greene 14:46:02 10/19/07 (0)
- Let me help you out, Pat - E-Stat 15:42:51 10/18/07 (14)
- "The protocols for DBTs are independent of that which is tested. Get it?" LOL - Pat D 12:50:24 10/19/07 (10)
- Pat you are being aprticularly dense here - Analog Scott 10:04:46 10/20/07 (0)
- Prove the obvious? - E-Stat 13:10:08 10/19/07 (8)
- "Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific - Pat D 04:18:14 10/20/07 (7)
- you are just making a semantic point. - Analog Scott 10:12:49 10/20/07 (6)
- But you need specific protocols to actually do the tests. - Pat D 10:50:09 10/20/07 (5)
- Jeez Pat no one said anything about specific protocols. - Analog Scott 11:05:20 10/20/07 (4)
- Maybe you should go back and re-read your post . . . - Pat D 14:02:00 10/20/07 (3)
- Pat clearly you just like to argue. This is a waste of time. nt. . . - Analog Scott 00:12:27 10/21/07 (2)
- Clearly *HE* likes to argue? That really did make me laugh out loud, coming from you (troll #1). /nt - truthseekerprime 06:36:03 10/21/07 (1)
- Does being a dick come naturally to you - Analog Scott 12:20:33 10/21/07 (0)
- Thank you - Analog Scott 19:43:33 10/18/07 (2)
- Post script - E-Stat 13:11:20 10/19/07 (0)
- He may get it - E-Stat 10:11:09 10/19/07 (0)
- keep em - Analog Scott 03:42:07 10/16/07 (0)
- Three Blind Tests?? - Todd Krieger 19:16:38 10/15/07 (2)
- Me too! - rick_m 20:42:41 10/16/07 (0)
- Ohhh ... that's AWFUL (nt) - Dave Pogue 05:38:01 10/16/07 (0)
- Don't knock astrology! - kerr 15:44:23 10/15/07 (0)
- Translation... - bjh 14:14:25 10/15/07 (2)
- You drinking again? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:24:26 10/16/07 (1)
- You just hit the hoser in the head. - tlyyra 06:06:29 10/17/07 (0)
- Thanks for going to the effort to detail the test sled - E-Stat 07:32:55 10/14/07 (0)
- A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - bjh 10:49:18 10/13/07 (15)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - EBradMeyer 14:56:14 10/16/07 (2)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - bjh 15:51:18 10/16/07 (1)
- "I'm not going to pick apart you post in detail, it would mostly involve commenting on your preconceived ideas - truthseekerprime 21:07:38 10/16/07 (0)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - drmoran@aol.com 14:22:59 10/16/07 (8)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - bjh 15:08:24 10/16/07 (7)
- One observation only (the same conclusion) - tlyyra 03:48:40 10/17/07 (0)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - EBradMeyer 15:51:57 10/16/07 (5)
- Yes, stick with me and ... - bjh 17:54:27 10/16/07 (4)
- RE: Yes, stick with me and ... - EBradMeyer 03:23:13 10/17/07 (3)
- RE: Yes, stick with me and ... - bjh 04:11:06 10/17/07 (2)
- Yep [nt] - Ted Smith 11:28:00 10/17/07 (1)
- Regrettably, yes. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:16:10 10/18/07 (0)
- RE: Your "evaluation" of the study - tlyyra 04:57:12 10/14/07 (2)
- who is this "us" you keep referencing? (nt) - robert young 13:59:09 10/14/07 (0)
- Déjà Vu? - bjh 07:19:26 10/14/07 (0)
- That should help put to rest some of the speculations favored by the denialists. n/t - tlyyra 03:56:34 10/13/07 (69)
- It does indeed put to rest speculations - E-Stat 08:09:00 10/13/07 (66)
- What is it that you are trying to say? - tlyyra 03:33:56 10/14/07 (9)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - EBradMeyer 15:13:01 10/16/07 (0)
- Quite simple - E-Stat 07:31:53 10/14/07 (3)
- In other words, you didn't even read the message you went ahead to reply to. - tlyyra 11:00:44 10/15/07 (2)
- I spent a lot more time reading the message - E-Stat 11:37:35 10/15/07 (1)
- Right, there was this thing about your schooling. - tlyyra 15:19:32 10/15/07 (0)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - John Atkinson 06:49:07 10/14/07 (3)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - tlyyra 11:06:51 10/15/07 (2)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - John Atkinson 04:46:42 10/16/07 (1)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - tlyyra 05:46:07 10/17/07 (0)
- Evidently you didn't go to the trouble of reading it before jumping to your pre-judged conclusion. - truthseekerprime 08:28:52 10/13/07 (55)
- RE: Evidently you didn't go to the trouble of reading it before jumping to your pre-judged conclusion. - Todd Krieger 17:47:14 10/13/07 (1)
- RE: Evidently you didn't go to the trouble of reading it before jumping to your pre-judged conclusion. - truthseekerprime 18:36:13 10/13/07 (0)
- I read it just fine - E-Stat 08:38:28 10/13/07 (52)
- RE: I read it just fine - EBradMeyer 15:24:51 10/16/07 (1)
- Feel free to ignore my surprise - E-Stat 15:40:09 10/16/07 (0)
- I don't understand your attitude. - truthseekerprime 09:14:20 10/13/07 (49)
- Threatening? - E-Stat 09:52:04 10/13/07 (48)
- Has anybody ever denied that? - truthseekerprime 11:02:02 10/13/07 (47)
- RE: Has anybody ever denied that? - Todd Krieger 00:01:10 10/14/07 (14)
- "You will only hear "16-bit quantization noise" if the playback has no digital filtering....." Huh?? /nt - truthseekerprime 04:57:49 10/14/07 (13)
- How Digital Filters Reduce Quantization Noise....... - Todd Krieger 20:29:14 10/14/07 (0)
- Dither anyone? [nt] - Ted Smith 09:38:27 10/14/07 (11)
- RE: Dither anyone? [nt] - Todd Krieger 00:03:43 10/15/07 (1)
- RE: Dither anyone? [nt] - EBradMeyer 15:30:21 10/16/07 (0)
- Removing the noise floor is precisely the *opposite* of what dither does. - truthseekerprime 09:45:49 10/14/07 (8)
- RE: Removing the noise floor is precisely the *opposite* of what dither does. - Ted Smith 09:58:28 10/14/07 (7)
- "it can allow you to hear a noise floor below the 16 bit quantization noise" - no! - truthseekerprime 10:27:35 10/14/07 (6)
- Yes, "it can allow you to hear a noise floor below the 16 bit quantization noise"! - rick_m 17:07:29 10/14/07 (0)
- You can hear signals below the noise floor. - Ted Smith 10:37:11 10/14/07 (4)
- I agree with that, but it's not pertinent. In any case I take it you agree with my points. /nt - truthseekerprime 11:38:30 10/14/07 (3)
- Not in so far as I don't understand your point - Ted Smith 12:42:54 10/14/07 (2)
- So you don't understand why M&M were able to DBX that particular hi-res recording vs. their 16 bit ADA? /nt - truthseekerprime 13:00:09 10/14/07 (1)
- If I choose not to respond to all of the bait here, that doesn't mean I agree or disagree with it. [nt] - Ted Smith 13:04:31 10/14/07 (0)
- Backpeddling noted -nt - E-Stat 12:29:17 10/13/07 (2)
- Read your own posts - you sound bitter, desperate even. Calm down! /nt - truthseekerprime 13:12:19 10/13/07 (1)
- Thoroughly amused is the appropriate term :) -nt - E-Stat 16:42:05 10/13/07 (0)
- RE: Has anybody ever denied that? - Ted Smith 11:31:56 10/13/07 (28)
- Yes, you're correct... - truthseekerprime 13:17:08 10/13/07 (27)
- RE: Yes, you're correct... - Ted Smith 14:35:43 10/13/07 (26)
- RE: Yes, you're correct... - truthseekerprime 15:00:04 10/13/07 (25)
- Healthy attitude - kerr 18:02:05 10/14/07 (0)
- "Personally I don't have a strong opinion on this ..." - Dave Pogue 07:16:14 10/14/07 (5)
- You're welcome :-). - truthseekerprime 08:57:40 10/14/07 (4)
- RE: You're welcome :-). - Dave Pogue 09:07:22 10/14/07 (3)
- RE: You're welcome :-). - truthseekerprime 09:35:39 10/14/07 (2)
- RE: You're welcome :-). - Dave Pogue 09:57:06 10/14/07 (1)
- Whatever you say, I guess. /nt - truthseekerprime 11:39:22 10/14/07 (0)
- RE: Yes, you're correct... - Ted Smith 16:03:57 10/13/07 (17)
- RE: "I don't like [Meyer & Moran's] attitude in the paper or here..." - tlyyra 03:46:39 10/14/07 (16)
- RE: "I don't like [Meyer & Moran's] attitude in the paper or here..." - Ted Smith 09:35:15 10/14/07 (1)
- RE: "I don't like [Meyer & Moran's] attitude in the paper or here..." - tlyyra 14:27:37 10/15/07 (0)
- Enjoying slumming? - rick_m 09:29:32 10/14/07 (13)
- RE: "...folks are a lot more convinced by what they experience than by what they read." - geoffkait 11:46:20 10/14/07 (12)
- RE: "...folks are a lot more convinced by what they experience than by what they read." - EBradMeyer 10/16/0715:41:30 10/16/07 (2)
- RE: "I mean, when someone puts a 2-ounce puck of exotic wood on the front corner of a 250-pound speaker..." - geoffkait 09:37:30 10/17/07 (1)
- Assumptions, assumptions... nt - clarkjohnsen 10:04:01 10/17/07 (0)
- Good point Geoff! - rick_m 14:06:06 10/14/07 (8)
- RE: "Sure, we can all get caught up in the moment." - geoffkait 03:39:38 10/15/07 (7)
- The moment passes... - rick_m 07:41:45 10/15/07 (6)
- RE: "I doubt that reviewers are all that easily "psyched out."" - geoffkait 08:14:53 10/15/07 (5)
- RE: "I doubt that reviewers are all that easily "psyched out."" - May Belt 03:56:05 10/17/07 (4)
- Great research, May! And well do I remember JA's Baxendall editorial. "I left the AES meeting saddened..." nt - clarkjohnsen 10:09:08 10/17/07 (3)
- RE: Great research, May! And well do I remember JA's Baxendall editorial. "I left the AES meeting saddened..." - May Belt 11:23:13 10/17/07 (2)
- In that case, great recollection! nt - clarkjohnsen 11:29:43 10/17/07 (1)
- Great exchange, guys! - tlyyra 15:38:08 10/17/07 (0)
- No. That is not a treatment or cure for such disorders (nt) - AJinFLA 04:47:37 10/13/07 (1)
- Right. I forgot the distinction between fact-based audio and faith-based audio. n/t - tlyyra 04:41:49 10/14/07 (0)
- Thanks Mr. Meyer. (nt) - Pat D 17:26:53 10/12/07 (0)
Follow Ups
- RE: "...folks are a lot more convinced by what they experience than by what they read." - EBradMeyer 10/16/0715:41:30 10/16/07 (2)
- RE: "I mean, when someone puts a 2-ounce puck of exotic wood on the front corner of a 250-pound speaker..." - geoffkait 09:37:30 10/17/07 (1)
- Assumptions, assumptions... nt - clarkjohnsen 10:04:01 10/17/07 (0)