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In Reply to: Please respond to this old post posted by Ole Lund Christensen on October 16, 2007 at 12:40:31:
Ole;
I appreciate your experience in audio, and I remember Poul Ladegaard from my days at Bolt Beranek and Newman, where we used Bruel and Kjaer equipment for lots of measurements.
It is certainly very easy to see differences between the things we were testing with an Audio Precision test setup, and it is easy to hear them as well, if you crank up the gain.
Our test is, I think, more powerful because we confined ourselves to a single comparison. I too have spent quite a lot of time listening to microphone feeds, and I remain firm in my opinion that the CD standard is perfectly adequate to transmit faithfully the mike feeds of the vast majority of acoustical events.
Your tests of multiple encoders have been performed in many places at different times. What you do not specify is whether they were done blind, and by this I mean both the subjects and the test giver. This has been proven numerous times to be important, and this fact is not a reflection on anyone's integrity. It just happens much more often that a roomful of people listen, non-blind, and come to an agreement on what they are hearing. This is not the same thing at all.
Of course you are correct that null results are much less powerful than positive correlations. But we did our homework, and looked diligently for positive results from any quarter, and the fact that we came up with null results is significant. Besides testing audiophiles on expensive home systems, we included in our subject population full-time recording and mastering engineers, listening in a leisurely fashion (in the evening, after work) to their own projects, on their own giant monitoring systems.
If someone else can get positive results we would be very interested to know about them, and to try to duplicate them. But non-blind tests, or tests in which the levels of the sources are not rigidly controlled (and this means within 0.1 dB), do not contradict our findings. -- E. Brad Meyer
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Follow Ups Full ThreadTopic - Hi-Res experimental details - EBradMeyer 13:10:32 10/12/07 (184)
- Scientific method and assumptions. - morricab 03:18:30 10/19/07 (6)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - EBradMeyer 06:25:07 10/20/07 (3)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - morricab 09:31:03 10/23/07 (0)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - morricab 08:11:56 10/23/07 (1)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - EBradMeyer 11:54:46 10/23/07 (0)
- "You have failed to address a basic question...Is there sufficient resolution to discrminate between..." - truthseekerprime 05:23:39 10/19/07 (1)
- RE: "You have failed to address a basic question...Is there sufficient resolution to discrminate between..." - Dan Banquer 07:16:11 10/19/07 (0)
- Please respond to this old post - Ole Lund Christensen 12:40:31 10/16/07 (36)
- Your comments are falling on deaf ears - E-Stat 07:24:42 10/17/07 (27)
- So your objection has morphed from doubting the conclusions to doubting the timing??? Talk about back-pedaling... /nt - truthseekerprime 14:48:38 10/17/07 (1)
- What part of my question - E-Stat 15:02:32 10/17/07 (0)
- I believe the kernel of the writers' purpose is stated by, "the CD standard is perfectly adequate". - clarkjohnsen 10:00:15 10/17/07 (24)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - EBradMeyer 06:45:50 10/20/07 (12)
- RE: That clears up a lot! - morricab 09:34:37 10/23/07 (0)
- RE: We have already specified exactly what the device was. - rick_m 13:19:05 10/20/07 (7)
- Check the BAS site - the info is there. /nt - truthseekerprime 10:40:20 10/23/07 (5)
- Thanks. - rick_m 13:53:25 10/23/07 (4)
- Do you mean, more discerning, because the quality is worse than it needs to be and yet still not audibly different? /nt - truthseekerprime 14:22:24 10/23/07 (3)
- Yes... - rick_m 16:51:53 10/23/07 (2)
- Out of curiosity, does the CD spec really say anything about dither? - truthseekerprime 04:44:38 10/24/07 (1)
- Don't know for sure... - rick_m 20:55:01 10/24/07 (0)
- Rotsa ruck! Doncha know, it sounds the same as *any* CD player. Take it from them. nt - clarkjohnsen 11:25:23 10/21/07 (0)
- "It won't hold up." That's good to know. Hey everybody! We're being told that CD players don't sound different! - clarkjohnsen 11:21:16 10/20/07 (2)
- RE: "It won't hold up." - EBradMeyer 12:00:32 10/23/07 (0)
- "That's what we want to know!" Maybe that's what _you_ want to know, but don't speak for anyone else. /nt - truthseekerprime 11:40:15 10/20/07 (0)
- By god, that's it!! They ignored polarity!!! No WONDER they couldn't hear any difference!!!! - truthseekerprime 14:47:11 10/17/07 (9)
- Also I see now, your sarcasm may also be read as in favor of phase-incoherent loudspeakers. - clarkjohnsen 10:04:48 10/18/07 (1)
- Sarcasm? What sarcasm? /nt - truthseekerprime 10:55:32 10/18/07 (0)
- It was #4 on the list, so I gather you've granted me the first three. - clarkjohnsen 09:54:43 10/18/07 (0)
- I believe you may have it!!!! But *note bene* that Orwellian spectacle! - tlyyra 16:34:26 10/17/07 (5)
- "some semblance (however imperfect!) of hoots-pah in presenting their, ah, "results"... - truthseekerprime 19:57:02 10/17/07 (1)
- RE: "a rather, err, wide target" - And not even a moving one. n/t - tlyyra 05:18:35 10/18/07 (0)
- Took you FIVE edits to get ... where? - Dave Pogue 18:52:40 10/17/07 (2)
- RE: "to get ... where?" - tlyyra 05:16:27 10/18/07 (1)
- RE: "to get ... where?" - Dave Pogue 06:40:57 10/18/07 (0)
- RE: "their hubris" - tlyyra 10:22:19 10/17/07 (0)
- RE: Please respond to this old post - EBradMeyer 10/16/0714:49:49 10/16/07 (3)
- You are most welcome - Ole Lund Christensen 11:50:01 10/18/07 (2)
- RE: Your kind invitation - EBradMeyer 08:13:30 10/23/07 (0)
- Here are 4 different versions of the same piano recordings to download for blind testing - Ole Lund Christensen 12:37:52 10/18/07 (0)
- More info on Fairlight - Ole Lund Christensen 13:14:36 10/16/07 (3)
- "The album became a bestseller." What one was it? nt - clarkjohnsen 09:23:33 10/17/07 (2)
- RE: "The album became a bestseller." What one was it? nt - Ole Lund Christensen 11:58:31 10/18/07 (1)
- Something then of a, ah,,, record? nt - clarkjohnsen 13:05:39 10/18/07 (0)
- Three basics of blind tests ... Did this experiment get the basics right? ... Please tell me ( I don't think so) - Richard BassNut Greene 13:59:19 10/15/07 (51)
- RE: Three basics of blind tests ... Did this experiment get the basics right? ... Please tell me ( I don't - EBradMeyer 14:54:41 10/16/07 (1)
- "It is not, however, a requirement for anyone to report differences before the blind portion of the test" = ? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:53:45 10/18/07 (0)
- you might want to consider learning the actual basics of blind testing. nt - Analog Scott 22:55:30 10/15/07 (41)
- I must add that for a post with no words in it, the "nt" in the subject box must means "not thinking" - Richard BassNut Greene 09:32:26 10/16/07 (8)
- "must means?" Sarry yall I dunt speek hillbilly. nt - Analog Scott 14:06:21 10/16/07 (5)
- But you sure spell like one - AJinFLA 15:25:03 10/18/07 (2)
- Your greatest contribution to Prop head. finding typose and spellling errors. - Analog Scott 19:38:25 10/18/07 (1)
- :-) (nt) - AJinFLA 16:01:05 10/19/07 (0)
- This is your most intelligent post yet! - Richard BassNut Greene 10:20:26 10/18/07 (1)
- Apparently it's the only one you have understood. - Analog Scott 11:58:27 10/18/07 (0)
- Here's one more issue to consider.... - mkuller 10:20:08 10/16/07 (1)
- RE: Here's one more issue to consider.... - EBradMeyer 15:08:40 10/16/07 (0)
- I'm sure when YOU learn them, you'll include them in your post rather than giving us a post with not one word - Richard BassNut Greene 09:27:07 10/16/07 (6)
- perhaps you should take your own advice - Analog Scott 14:09:30 10/16/07 (4)
- RE: perhaps you should take your own advice - Pat D 07:15:22 10/17/07 (3)
- well.... - Analog Scott 10:48:51 10/17/07 (2)
- RE: well.... - Pat D 23:49:27 10/17/07 (1)
- It seems you missed my point - Analog Scott 12:00:59 10/18/07 (0)
- Richard please don't attempt humor... - bjh 10:03:30 10/16/07 (0)
- What a devastating blow. - Ugly 00:10:24 10/16/07 (24)
- AS ran out of hot air after only 12 words in the subject box (a new record for him?) - Richard BassNut Greene 09:35:05 10/16/07 (22)
- "what were you thinking?" - Analog Scott 14:29:53 10/16/07 (21)
- AS took a class and now knows how to cut and paste -- very good AS you get a gold star - Richard BassNut Greene 09:58:11 10/18/07 (1)
- You can lead a horse to water - Analog Scott 12:03:43 10/18/07 (0)
- RE: "what were you thinking?" - Pat D 23:48:13 10/17/07 (18)
- So you think the basics of DBTs are different for each? - Analog Scott 12:05:04 10/18/07 (17)
- You're so vague there's no point in me trying to figure out what you are failing to say. - Pat D 14:31:57 10/18/07 (16)
- Maybe his knowledge is vast but his writing is vague or perhaps his writing is clear but his knowledge is half-vast - Richard BassNut Greene 14:46:02 10/19/07 (0)
- Let me help you out, Pat - E-Stat 15:42:51 10/18/07 (14)
- "The protocols for DBTs are independent of that which is tested. Get it?" LOL - Pat D 12:50:24 10/19/07 (10)
- Pat you are being aprticularly dense here - Analog Scott 10:04:46 10/20/07 (0)
- Prove the obvious? - E-Stat 13:10:08 10/19/07 (8)
- "Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific - Pat D 04:18:14 10/20/07 (7)
- you are just making a semantic point. - Analog Scott 10:12:49 10/20/07 (6)
- But you need specific protocols to actually do the tests. - Pat D 10:50:09 10/20/07 (5)
- Jeez Pat no one said anything about specific protocols. - Analog Scott 11:05:20 10/20/07 (4)
- Maybe you should go back and re-read your post . . . - Pat D 14:02:00 10/20/07 (3)
- Pat clearly you just like to argue. This is a waste of time. nt. . . - Analog Scott 00:12:27 10/21/07 (2)
- Clearly *HE* likes to argue? That really did make me laugh out loud, coming from you (troll #1). /nt - truthseekerprime 06:36:03 10/21/07 (1)
- Does being a dick come naturally to you - Analog Scott 12:20:33 10/21/07 (0)
- Thank you - Analog Scott 19:43:33 10/18/07 (2)
- Post script - E-Stat 13:11:20 10/19/07 (0)
- He may get it - E-Stat 10:11:09 10/19/07 (0)
- keep em - Analog Scott 03:42:07 10/16/07 (0)
- Three Blind Tests?? - Todd Krieger 19:16:38 10/15/07 (2)
- Me too! - rick_m 20:42:41 10/16/07 (0)
- Ohhh ... that's AWFUL (nt) - Dave Pogue 05:38:01 10/16/07 (0)
- Don't knock astrology! - kerr 15:44:23 10/15/07 (0)
- Translation... - bjh 14:14:25 10/15/07 (2)
- You drinking again? - Richard BassNut Greene 09:24:26 10/16/07 (1)
- You just hit the hoser in the head. - tlyyra 06:06:29 10/17/07 (0)
- Thanks for going to the effort to detail the test sled - E-Stat 07:32:55 10/14/07 (0)
- A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - bjh 10:49:18 10/13/07 (15)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - EBradMeyer 14:56:14 10/16/07 (2)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - bjh 15:51:18 10/16/07 (1)
- "I'm not going to pick apart you post in detail, it would mostly involve commenting on your preconceived ideas - truthseekerprime 21:07:38 10/16/07 (0)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - drmoran@aol.com 14:22:59 10/16/07 (8)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - bjh 15:08:24 10/16/07 (7)
- One observation only (the same conclusion) - tlyyra 03:48:40 10/17/07 (0)
- RE: A few observations (and the same conclusion)... - EBradMeyer 15:51:57 10/16/07 (5)
- Yes, stick with me and ... - bjh 17:54:27 10/16/07 (4)
- RE: Yes, stick with me and ... - EBradMeyer 03:23:13 10/17/07 (3)
- RE: Yes, stick with me and ... - bjh 04:11:06 10/17/07 (2)
- Yep [nt] - Ted Smith 11:28:00 10/17/07 (1)
- Regrettably, yes. nt - clarkjohnsen 10:16:10 10/18/07 (0)
- RE: Your "evaluation" of the study - tlyyra 04:57:12 10/14/07 (2)
- who is this "us" you keep referencing? (nt) - robert young 13:59:09 10/14/07 (0)
- Déjà Vu? - bjh 07:19:26 10/14/07 (0)
- That should help put to rest some of the speculations favored by the denialists. n/t - tlyyra 03:56:34 10/13/07 (69)
- It does indeed put to rest speculations - E-Stat 08:09:00 10/13/07 (66)
- What is it that you are trying to say? - tlyyra 03:33:56 10/14/07 (9)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - EBradMeyer 15:13:01 10/16/07 (0)
- Quite simple - E-Stat 07:31:53 10/14/07 (3)
- In other words, you didn't even read the message you went ahead to reply to. - tlyyra 11:00:44 10/15/07 (2)
- I spent a lot more time reading the message - E-Stat 11:37:35 10/15/07 (1)
- Right, there was this thing about your schooling. - tlyyra 15:19:32 10/15/07 (0)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - John Atkinson 06:49:07 10/14/07 (3)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - tlyyra 11:06:51 10/15/07 (2)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - John Atkinson 04:46:42 10/16/07 (1)
- RE: What is it that you are trying to say? - tlyyra 05:46:07 10/17/07 (0)
- Evidently you didn't go to the trouble of reading it before jumping to your pre-judged conclusion. - truthseekerprime 08:28:52 10/13/07 (55)
- RE: Evidently you didn't go to the trouble of reading it before jumping to your pre-judged conclusion. - Todd Krieger 17:47:14 10/13/07 (1)
- RE: Evidently you didn't go to the trouble of reading it before jumping to your pre-judged conclusion. - truthseekerprime 18:36:13 10/13/07 (0)
- I read it just fine - E-Stat 08:38:28 10/13/07 (52)
- RE: I read it just fine - EBradMeyer 15:24:51 10/16/07 (1)
- Feel free to ignore my surprise - E-Stat 15:40:09 10/16/07 (0)
- I don't understand your attitude. - truthseekerprime 09:14:20 10/13/07 (49)
- Threatening? - E-Stat 09:52:04 10/13/07 (48)
- Has anybody ever denied that? - truthseekerprime 11:02:02 10/13/07 (47)
- RE: Has anybody ever denied that? - Todd Krieger 00:01:10 10/14/07 (14)
- "You will only hear "16-bit quantization noise" if the playback has no digital filtering....." Huh?? /nt - truthseekerprime 04:57:49 10/14/07 (13)
- How Digital Filters Reduce Quantization Noise....... - Todd Krieger 20:29:14 10/14/07 (0)
- Dither anyone? [nt] - Ted Smith 09:38:27 10/14/07 (11)
- RE: Dither anyone? [nt] - Todd Krieger 00:03:43 10/15/07 (1)
- RE: Dither anyone? [nt] - EBradMeyer 15:30:21 10/16/07 (0)
- Removing the noise floor is precisely the *opposite* of what dither does. - truthseekerprime 09:45:49 10/14/07 (8)
- RE: Removing the noise floor is precisely the *opposite* of what dither does. - Ted Smith 09:58:28 10/14/07 (7)
- "it can allow you to hear a noise floor below the 16 bit quantization noise" - no! - truthseekerprime 10:27:35 10/14/07 (6)
- Yes, "it can allow you to hear a noise floor below the 16 bit quantization noise"! - rick_m 17:07:29 10/14/07 (0)
- You can hear signals below the noise floor. - Ted Smith 10:37:11 10/14/07 (4)
- I agree with that, but it's not pertinent. In any case I take it you agree with my points. /nt - truthseekerprime 11:38:30 10/14/07 (3)
- Not in so far as I don't understand your point - Ted Smith 12:42:54 10/14/07 (2)
- So you don't understand why M&M were able to DBX that particular hi-res recording vs. their 16 bit ADA? /nt - truthseekerprime 13:00:09 10/14/07 (1)
- If I choose not to respond to all of the bait here, that doesn't mean I agree or disagree with it. [nt] - Ted Smith 13:04:31 10/14/07 (0)
- Backpeddling noted -nt - E-Stat 12:29:17 10/13/07 (2)
- Read your own posts - you sound bitter, desperate even. Calm down! /nt - truthseekerprime 13:12:19 10/13/07 (1)
- Thoroughly amused is the appropriate term :) -nt - E-Stat 16:42:05 10/13/07 (0)
- RE: Has anybody ever denied that? - Ted Smith 11:31:56 10/13/07 (28)
- Yes, you're correct... - truthseekerprime 13:17:08 10/13/07 (27)
- RE: Yes, you're correct... - Ted Smith 14:35:43 10/13/07 (26)
- RE: Yes, you're correct... - truthseekerprime 15:00:04 10/13/07 (25)
- Healthy attitude - kerr 18:02:05 10/14/07 (0)
- "Personally I don't have a strong opinion on this ..." - Dave Pogue 07:16:14 10/14/07 (5)
- You're welcome :-). - truthseekerprime 08:57:40 10/14/07 (4)
- RE: You're welcome :-). - Dave Pogue 09:07:22 10/14/07 (3)
- RE: You're welcome :-). - truthseekerprime 09:35:39 10/14/07 (2)
- RE: You're welcome :-). - Dave Pogue 09:57:06 10/14/07 (1)
- Whatever you say, I guess. /nt - truthseekerprime 11:39:22 10/14/07 (0)
- RE: Yes, you're correct... - Ted Smith 16:03:57 10/13/07 (17)
- RE: "I don't like [Meyer & Moran's] attitude in the paper or here..." - tlyyra 03:46:39 10/14/07 (16)
- RE: "I don't like [Meyer & Moran's] attitude in the paper or here..." - Ted Smith 09:35:15 10/14/07 (1)
- RE: "I don't like [Meyer & Moran's] attitude in the paper or here..." - tlyyra 14:27:37 10/15/07 (0)
- Enjoying slumming? - rick_m 09:29:32 10/14/07 (13)
- RE: "...folks are a lot more convinced by what they experience than by what they read." - geoffkait 11:46:20 10/14/07 (12)
- RE: "...folks are a lot more convinced by what they experience than by what they read." - EBradMeyer 15:41:30 10/16/07 (2)
- RE: "I mean, when someone puts a 2-ounce puck of exotic wood on the front corner of a 250-pound speaker..." - geoffkait 09:37:30 10/17/07 (1)
- Assumptions, assumptions... nt - clarkjohnsen 10:04:01 10/17/07 (0)
- Good point Geoff! - rick_m 14:06:06 10/14/07 (8)
- RE: "Sure, we can all get caught up in the moment." - geoffkait 03:39:38 10/15/07 (7)
- The moment passes... - rick_m 07:41:45 10/15/07 (6)
- RE: "I doubt that reviewers are all that easily "psyched out."" - geoffkait 08:14:53 10/15/07 (5)
- RE: "I doubt that reviewers are all that easily "psyched out."" - May Belt 03:56:05 10/17/07 (4)
- Great research, May! And well do I remember JA's Baxendall editorial. "I left the AES meeting saddened..." nt - clarkjohnsen 10:09:08 10/17/07 (3)
- RE: Great research, May! And well do I remember JA's Baxendall editorial. "I left the AES meeting saddened..." - May Belt 11:23:13 10/17/07 (2)
- In that case, great recollection! nt - clarkjohnsen 11:29:43 10/17/07 (1)
- Great exchange, guys! - tlyyra 15:38:08 10/17/07 (0)
- No. That is not a treatment or cure for such disorders (nt) - AJinFLA 04:47:37 10/13/07 (1)
- Right. I forgot the distinction between fact-based audio and faith-based audio. n/t - tlyyra 04:41:49 10/14/07 (0)
- Thanks Mr. Meyer. (nt) - Pat D 17:26:53 10/12/07 (0)
Follow Ups
- RE: Please respond to this old post - EBradMeyer 10/16/0714:49:49 10/16/07 (3)
- You are most welcome - Ole Lund Christensen 11:50:01 10/18/07 (2)
- RE: Your kind invitation - EBradMeyer 08:13:30 10/23/07 (0)
- Here are 4 different versions of the same piano recordings to download for blind testing - Ole Lund Christensen 12:37:52 10/18/07 (0)