General Asylum General audio topics that don't fit into specific categories.

---

[ Follow Ups ] Thread: [ Display  All  Email ] [ General Asylum ] [ Return to Search Results ]

---

[ Alert Moderator ]

---

A couple of points

Posted by Auricle (A) on July 28, 2004 at 06:17:12

In Reply to: Is this the start of the end for HI)FI+ posted by greginsydneyau on July 27, 2004 at 23:03:15:

first allow me to agree with a few things before I disagree with the thrust.

Cable sales of all types, particularly power cables, are rife with unproven claims based on "snake oil". As Salvatore states on his site.

Though there is some research on what might cause differences in sound in interconnects and speaker cables (including geometry, materials and dielectric) there has been no major attempt to organise it into a body of knowledge worthy of study. The situation with power cables is even worse.

The camps seem to be divided into 3 factions.
1. The "cables is cables" faction
2. The "educated ear" with an open mind faction.
3. The "fairy dust" faction.

The first and last groups are "true believers". With the "cables is cables" set, the knowledge is based on study of extant texts, most of which were published more than 10 years ago, written 10 to 20 years ago and based on widely accepted knowledge at the time. This problem is, of course, not exclusive to engineers but to all empiricists; scientists and engineers most especially. It does not help that, for example, IBM sat on much of its research into the pertinacity of cryogenic emersion effects for competitive reasons and much of that research is yet to find the light of day. En fin, unless one is deeply involved in cutting edge research one is commenting using a knowledge base that is seriously behind the curve. It was such an attitude ("if I can't measure it, it can't exist") that reduced Julian Hirsch's credibility to that of Alfred E. Newman. If one does not know what to measure or there is no measurement methodology does not lead to the conclusion that the effect does not exist. The most prominant section of this group are engineers not involved in audio research but with an interest.

The opposite extreme actually takes advantage of that problem by using unpublished, proprietary "research" to make astounding claims for their products which are available at astronomical prices. Often these "scientific" breakthroughs are not contemplated by the extant "body of knowledge" and actually seem to refute it. These attitudes account for much of the hyperbole seen amongst reviewers today. The most prominant group in this faction is "audiophiles", with little or no engineering background but with "streetcorner/chat group" knowledge.

Finally, thank God, there are people who are generally performing musicians or avid concert goers (usually classical but occasionally Jazz or other acoustic music) who have systems of their own and can occasionally tell differences in a proper Double Blind Test (yes, I do know how and am one of the few people great enough of a wanker to bother . . . such sessions last a while and are a PITA. I have conducted more than 100 and 15+ of them have been for cables). BTW, though banned as a discussion item on the cable asylum, a double blind test is an accepted scientific research method.

What I have noticed in doing the tests is the effect of blind belief. Amongst the "cables is cables" group one could play a boom box compared to a $100,000 system and the members
1. Would profess to hear no difference (idiotic)
2. state that the test was rigged (correct in this case, however they do the same when they perceive a difference in a proper test). In short, the belief system engenders denial.

The "fairy dust" set, on the other hand, hears a difference no matter what! Since the selection of the items being tested is random (well, pseudo random) the same item is sometimes played twice (even 3 times) in a row. These listeners profess to hear a difference. In other words, their belief system mandates that they hear a difference.

Now for the musicians and concert goers. There are cables and setups (ICs and speaker cables) where the musicians hear a difference and can designate the variant over 90% of the time. There are also cases where they can hear no difference. The result with power cables has been far less dramatic and cannot be called indicative much less definitive (the test is a bear to set up). I have participated in some of these tests (the switcher is not allowed a vote and I designate someone) and number myself amongst this last group. It also seems to be where Arthur Salvatore resides.

The participants are never told their results to avoid poisoning the well. They are told, however, that the sequence is random and may involve the same item X times in a row.

Let us just say that there have been some very high priced items which have had unimpressive results and vice-versa. But there have been items where the group got it consistantly and dramatically which seems to bely the notion that it is impossible. As to why this happens, "not my job, mon!"

This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:

---

[ Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]

---

[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]

---