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In Reply to: Re: 'deep freezing' is NOT cryogenic treatment, Janos. [nt] posted by alan m. kafton on March 5, 2004 at 08:01:49:
Deep freezing has a long historical background with metals.
Skandinavians have used it to make their swords sharp and strong.
They cast out the blade in the bone-breaking skandinavian winter. Sometimes the blade was left out for years. Result: when they clashed it with non-treated swords, the non-teated broke.
This was one of the factors that made viking raids "a success", so they could sack and loot half Europe for hundreds of years.In my experience - as regards to stereo - the "deep freezing" is as effective as "cryogenic treatment", if conditions are set correctly.
I am concerned about the way most companies usually treat "cryonegically" metals: they ramp down the temperature, keep the items for usually one day or even less, then they ramp up. It is effective, yes, but items run a great risk if treated improperly, aka during ramping liquid nitrogen can spill on the item directly. So, cheers for those who do it properly!
As they treat a LOT of items at once, the items in the bottom and the items in the center get different treatment. Even though there is a giant temperature gradius, a huge transformer requires way longer time to cool down at the core than a spool of 30ga wire. What treatment is perfect for the small amount of thin wire, is insufficient for a 10 lbs tranny.What I do is that I wrap every item individually, giving a thermal insulation and preventing water condensation on surface (that can be nasty on transformers...). Then (secret steps....:), so the ramping is much slower than during a bulk-cryogenic treatment, and I leave the items at low temperature for at least a month.
"deep freezing" for a month has proved as efficient, if not more efficient, than a couple days of "cryogenic treatment".I have tried "deep freezing" an IC that has been "cryogenically treated" by manufacturer, and already broken in, used for a year. The result was noticeable! It was almost as prominent as when you cryogenically treat a non-treated wire. As I have not heard this IC non-treated (you can't buy it that way), I can not be more precise on this comparison.
What are the conclusions?
Both "deep freezing" and "cryogenic treatment" have been equally effective in my experience, and both "deep freezing" and "cryogenic treatment" benefit from a second treatment after half year, as the effects of BOTH start to fade to a certain level.In all kinds of cold treatment cases, the effects are the strongest when the items are still cold. (This is what you can not observe if you treat your wire with a company: during the shippment they warm up to environment temp.) Then the effect fades a bit, and stays for a long while, but still benefits from a second treatment. (I have not experiemnted with more than two...)
Probably the effects of the various cold treatments are due to the ramping. The rate of heat transfer can be even more important than the temperature, and probably the time of the treatment is also an important factor.As I saw no sonic difference between c.t. and d.f, I call them both cryogenic treatment, as far as I imply it for stereo applications, although it is not scientifically precise. I am also aware that I do deep freezing very different than most people would do, and I do not want to write this long reply each time I post on the subject.
Another important fact to notice is that the companies who invested money into their liquid nitrogen tanks and facilities have to hype the exact temperature, otherwise their business would suffer.
Do not misunderstand me, I am not against these companies. I welcome them, as they present an opportunity for everyone to treat their stuff.
But based on my experience, "deep freezing", if done properly, is at least as beneficial as conventional "cryogenic treatment", and until now I have observed failure rate of 0% over a couple years.
I've been "deep freezing" hundreds of items, (transformers, wire, caps...), and experimented with the methodology and the parameters of treatment.Probably the effect of cryogenic treatment is that molecular oxigen is forced out of the metal structure, and the metal atoms can align much better. The lower the temperature, the faster the metal atoms can align, and push out oxygen. If we use higher temperature (-80C instead of -140C) we can still achieve the same effect with longer treatment time.
As far as cryogenic treatment goes, I know that neither of the two methods are perfect, and much better results could be achieved... with an astrophysicist friend of mine we devised a method that could be the ultimate, yet that kind of treatment would need years, giant amount of energy (with temperatures way lower than "measly:)" "cryogenic treatment"), and a very serious facility... but we'd have a perfect crystal structure with no trapped oxygen inside the metal.
Until then we enjoy the lesser effects, whether they arise from c.t. or d.f. .
This is a novel area of research, we can not take anything granted yet, as this field evolves each year. So do not take anyting for granted because a company said so. BTW, you were correct about the nomenclature, and I am yaking way too much:)))))
Good luck,
Janos
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- Re: 'deep freezing' is NOT cryogenic treatment, Janos. [nt] - Janos 03/5/0414:28:44 03/5/04 (0)
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