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I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with the 1978 Telarc LP of the 1812 Overture. It was notoriously difficult to track through the cannon sections. I have tried w/ Empire and AR (ES) turntables w/ Shure Type V MR carts and even a Technics table. They could not do it but I expected that the new VPI Scout (W/ Sumiko Blackbird) could...not so! Mine cannot! I'm wondering if I'm expecting too much considering the extreme groove excursions? Any thoughts?
Follow Ups:
I have sucessfully tracked the Telarc 1812 cannon shots with my old Dual 1229 with MicroAcoustics 2002e cartridge at 1.25 grams AND the same table with a Shure V15IV. I've also tracked it with an AR XA with stock arm and the 2002e cart at 1.25 gm.I have tried tracking it with my current tables and carts and have not had total success. My AR with Pioneer arm tracks it with an AT440ML at 2 grams (too high for that cart but it does work) but won't track at normal VTF or with a Stanton 681EEE. My Dual 1246 also will track it but with only with an Ortofon ULM55E at 2 grams (again, too heavy).
My conclusions: 1. The cannon shots are a bitch to track.
2. The MicroAcoustics 2002e, one of the most compliant cartridges ever marketed, would track anything. 3. The DUAL tonearm, circa 1974, was a very good arm. 4. The AR stock arm, despite looking like it was designed by Fred Flintstone is actually a very good arm. Looks ARE deceiving. 5. Most carts/tonearms can't track the shots unless operated outside normal parameters.I no longer have the 2002e. It wore out and I could not find a replacement stylus ANYWHERE. The V15IV I still have but it is in need of a new stylus as the old one is beyond worn out. The Ortofon ULM was sold when I got rid of my 1264.
Yes, Virginia, they are real cannon shots.
with the servo-tracer tonearm and Grado Silver(!) tracked the Telarc flawlessly. I don't think the tonearm was that good sounding but it tracked like a champ. I had the table for about a month and decided I didn't care for it so I put my Dual 1246 back in the system and sold the Denon. The guy who bought it says he loves it.I use the Dual because my wife insists on an auto turntable for her use. I have an AR in my other system, totally manual of course. She can't figure it out - says it's too complicated. I guess it is compared to just pushing a lever on the Dual.
I have not yet heard that recording,,,onlt the CD thru headphones at a bookstore...How do they compare to the real cannons used in the Mercury Living Presence recording?
Good question! I have not compared! I have four versions of the 1812 Mercury Living Presence, Telarc, and two more i can't remember right now. One does not have cannons!
I have the UHQR(200 grams) pressing that is packaged in the box. I've never been able to play the cannon part. This must be the untrackable third pressing that Stan the man is talking about......
Hey folks... First time poster, but I ran across the answer to this one recently, in a very interesting interview (reprinted on Cardas.com from Positive Feedback) with a guy called Stan Ricker (some may recognise the name). He was the original mastering engineer for that recording.Apparently, there are actually 3 different masters cut from the same tape - one (the original) cut by Stan, and two remasters cut by Bruce Leek. According to Stan, about 50% of people can track the original, just about everyone can track the second, and no-one can track the third.
I have about three copies of this LP (I never knew there were two kinds!), and never could get my MF-5 to play any of them! I later came into an Acoustic Signature Final Tool. Installed a Graham Robin arm and Denon cartridge. Tracked any and everything, but one Phil Woods LP. I've since replaced the feet with wider and heavier ones made from copper inert tungsten, and now plays that Phil Woods LP just fine. Had a chunk of Mallory Metal That I was going to make feet out of, but alas somebody got rid of it!!!!
gary
No can do on my VPI HW-19 MkIII, JMW10, Benz Silver.
No can do on my Technics SL D-202, Nagoaka MP15.
Can do on my Dual CS-514 w/ factory cartridge.Strange but true.
Brian
I had a Dual “something-or-other” years ago with a Dynavector Ruby 2.5 that seemed to track Telarc’s 1812 quite nicely. At least it didn’t jump into another groove. I have a feeling it jumped out of the groove on several occasions and then returned to the same groove, but it sounded like it was tracking it okay.Best regards,
John Elison
I've heard that the Telarc guys, after realising that the original 1812 LP wouldn't track on pretty much every 'table in existance had a new copy cut but lowered the overall level during the cannons. Then they simply issued it without telling anyone.I can't verify this, but its one of those "audio myths" that I've heard for years regarding this record.
A good fish story, I'm sure, but who really knows?
Cheers,
Dman
GREAT GEAR DESTROYER!!!
I wonder whether is a waste of time to worry about a particular record that, as I recall having reading, does not happen to follow the RIAA specifications. Does anyone know for sure this statement?
In my opinion it doesn't say anything that a cartridge can not follow those groove excursions.
Miguel
I think there is something wrong with your pressing or how you have your table set up. I don't have a problem tracking it with my Scout/ Blackbird.
though my previous arm + cart combo, SME Series III + Clearaudio Aurum Alpha, did not do bad at all.
I bought this when it came out in the early 80's and played it
on a H/K T-60 with a Pinnacle ML-1 cartridge. Funny thing was that
the first time or 2 I played it, the stylus jumped right out of the
groove! Subsequently, it tracked w/ no problem... Could the groove
have been damaged by the initial play, which allowed it to be tracked
after that???In any event, it is a great demo record, if nothing else!
Take a look at the grooves with a magnifying glass. You might see where the stylus came out of the groove and cut a new groove across the top before falling back into the same groove. I was looking at both my copies the other day and that’s what I observed. I have a feeling that my present system might be able to track it properly, but I would need a mint copy of the record in order to find out.Best regard,
John Elison
Forget the cannons. The best-kept secret is the flip side of this very album. Tchaikovky's "Capriccio Italien" and "Kossack Dance." If your system can handle the dynamics, it is the closest to the real thing I've heard off commercial recording. And the performances are far better than the "1812."
I remember my old Dual 704 with Shure V15-III could track it but it didn't sound very pleasant nor natural. I still have the record and played it maybe thrice in all these years, avoiding the cannon part. To be honest: I think it was a gimmick to sell records with a higher profit margin. No turntable and no cartridge are supposed to track these extreme modulations. Look at the grooves! They are one millimeter and more apart. I am no physicist but I guess the stylus is accelerated by several Gs in these grooves. What good do real cannons if you can't hear them... Tom
I once had a Shure V-15 Type IV cartridge that was able to track the cannon shots, but when listening at low volume levels, I always had the impression that either the phono stage and/or cartridge's motor system was being overloaded. For I've never heard these cannons sound remotely close to the real thing.If an audio system was truly capable of reproducing cannons, it would be capable of blowing out the room's windows.
I'm using an old Sansui Direct Drive tt, Syrinx arm and Fidelity Research LO MC, tracking at 2g. I can track most of the cannon blasts without a problem but it seems at least once or twice, I'll get some audible breakup, not complete skips but I'd call it misstracking.
I was playing this LP once, just to see if I could, and a photo envelope, full of photos, nearly blew off the coffee table about 3 or 4 feet in front of the woofers. I felt the blast and it actually startled me. I could feel my hair move and I was about 7 or 8 feet away. Not my favorite album by any means but it can give a rather unique experience.
Bill
I'll have to pick up a copy and try it myself. I'll let you know.
The funny thing about this record is that as long as the stylus returns to the same groove, it might actually sound just fine and you might not realize it is not tracking perfectly. All I know is that my AT-OC9ML/II sounds as good as any cartridge I’ve heard on this record. It sounds to me like it tracks it, but how can I really tell. I just don’t know what an undistorted cannon shot sounds like. I mean, cannon shots all sound distorted to me. :)Best regards,
John Elison
The record sounds like a canon being shot from about 100' away to me, not close up. I have heard a lot of canon shots. We used to have a fraternity across the way that had one. They loaded it with powder and a pillow in place of the ball and shot it. They probably wouldn't allow that on campus today. I also served in the army artillary. The shots on the record sound more like an antique canon definately not a modern Howitzer, but I don't beleive it sounds right. A speaker system wasn't designed to move that much air that quickly. I don't have a problem with that as I favor music and not gunfire.
I think you are going a bit overboard on this cannon thing. This is piece of music. The cannons are not supposed to blow your windows out; they are supposed to sound far away and integrate with the music. I was in the military, too, and I also know you can’t recreate a cannon shot in your home using speakers unless you plan to destroy your house in the process. As far as I’m concerned, the cannon shots in Telarc’s 1812 sound as realistic as I have ever heard from my stereo system. Of course, I have excellent subwoofers and a cartridge that I believe tracks those thunderous grooves beautifully. If you think you’ve found another version with more realistic cannons, please let us all know about it.Best regards,
John Elison
When I was a teenager I lived two doors up the street from a guy who was going to school to become an electrical engineer, and he had the very first true hi fidelity system I've ever heard. He had this LP
from England that featured the main guns from the battleship King George. As I recall his turntable wouldn't begin to track it! But the rest was beautiful music. Last I heard Duke was one of the big players in the space program, and should be retiring about now.
gary
In every case I've mentioned, the stylus actually skips. I also recently purchased the newly recorded SACD of the 1812 and while I haven't really spent significant time w/ it, I did go right to the cannons out of curiosity and was not impressed w/ them. I've yet to add the sub to see what happens and maybe my Fouriers are not up to that kind of dynamic. I guess I better check my VPI set up as it sounds like it should be able to do a little better than skip. I haven't had a chance to set it up my self yet as it just arrived from Elusive disc where it was suggested (by HW) that they did a very accurate job...we'll see and I'll report back when I've dug a little deaper.PS... just let me add that obviously the 1812 is a showpiece but not necessarily what I would most often listen to from a musical standpoint...and from the perspective of more "organic" music, the VPI Scout has been outstanding so far.
Guess I just got lucky.
Guess so!
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