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Vinyl Asylum: THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE by John Elison Welcome Licorice Pizza (LP) lovers! Setup guides and Vinyl FAQ. |
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I guess I haven’t said much about the challenge because I really don’t know what to say. I suppose I was hoping that the challenge would resolve the analog/digital debate, but that certainly didn’t happen. In fact, I’m not sure that it changed anyone’s beliefs about audio one iota. Of course, the only thing I know for sure is that my beliefs about analog and digital have not wavered in the least as a result of this challenge. I still feel that 16/44 Redbook has sufficient accuracy and resolution to transparently copy any LP played on any turntable with any phono cartridge so long as accurate electronics are used in the process.
The main problem I faced in this challenge was that Mike insisted that we could not deviate from his darTZeel electronics. Originally, I suggested we use an accurate Pass Labs X1 control preamplifier for its balanced interface and seamless switching capability. I told him that we could still use his darTZeel phono section and simply use the X1 for the line stage. However, his position was quite firm that we could not substitute any other components into his system. We could only connect my equipment to his preamplifier and I agreed to his rules.
One thing that was exceptionally helpful in this challenge was Stereophile’s recent test report on Mike’s darTZeel preamplifier. I was planning to use balanced I/O before reading the measurements section of this test report. It so happens that the balanced I/O on the darTZeel is simply transformer coupled add-ons with poor frequency response. Had Stereophile not published its test report just before the challenge, I’m sure I would have lost the challenge. In fact, when I informed Mike of this, he told me that I was very wise not to use the balanced I/O. As a result, I switched gears and used the unbalanced fixed outputs with XLR-to-RCA adaptors for recording to my Masterlink. Even then, my CD-R recordings still sounded slightly different from the LP.
I attribute those audible differences between my digital copies as well as any audible differences between Bruce’s high-resolution digital copies to impedance mismatches and frequency response irregularities in Mike’s darTZeel preamplifier. If you read the measurements section of the darTZeel test report in the June issue of Stereophile, you will understand what I’m talking about. Although Mike Fremer and Mike Lavigne are enamored with darTZeel components, it is clear from the measurements that darTZeel has impedance issues, frequency response issues, overload issues and a number of other anomalies not expected from a $23,250 preamplifier. In my opinion, darTZeel is nothing I would want in my stereo system if I had the money to buy it. Furthermore, it is nothing that could be used for an accuracy test of any kind.
To be honest, I am still quite surprised that I won the challenge. Personally, I cannot hear beyond 13-kHz, yet I could easily hear the difference between Mike’s Rockport Sirius III/Colibri and my CD-R. Furthermore, I could also hear the difference between Bruce’s high-resolution DSD recordings. When Mike emerged from the listening room and told me I had won the challenge, I was quite surprised. And, when others emerged from the room and told me they had also failed the blind test after Mike, I was even more surprised.
I will say that I have never listened to my CD-R recording to this day. I left my CD-R with my friend in Seattle knowing that when my Masterlink was shipped back to me I would have the recording on its hard drive to play in my system. I have never heard the CD-R that I produced for the challenge.
From a perspective of agreement, I don’t think there is anything that Mike and I agree upon regarding audio except that Mike’s stereo system is the most impressive stereo system that either of us has ever heard. In fact, all who listened made that comment.
My perspective is that Mike’s system is bigger than life. I would say it’s at least 10-times bigger than life. I’m not sure Mike’s system is accurate, but it is the most impressive stereo system I have ever heard.
I want to thank Mike for being such a wonderful person and such an extraordinary and gracious host for this challenge. I would also like to thank Ted and Joe for conducting all the blind tests. You two are my heroes. I really didn’t want to deal with the blind tests and you made that possible. Additionally, I also want to thank all the other North Pacific Audiophile Society members for being there and providing their support and their barbecue. It was exceptional. I can not say enough about the people involved in this wonderful weekend adventure. I was stressed, but I also had fun. Many thanks to Gil for his friendship and companionship when I was most stressed. This was truly an exceptional experience.
Best regards,
John Elison
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Topic - THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - John Elison 17:57:23 06/27/07 ( 123)
- I think it was courageous to be honest in your impression of the DarTZeel - jdaniel 15:51:25 06/29/07 ( 0)
Geez, the world went to hell in a handbasket in... - Hi-Fi Nut 15:37:39 06/29/07 ( 0)
darTZeel - Arlekino 17:44:04 06/28/07 ( 20)
- The Rockport Sirius III is one class act.... - John Elison 19:05:34 06/28/07 ( 19)
- Nicely written John... - EdAInWestOC 05:45:33 06/29/07 ( 0)
- RE: The Rockport Sirius III is one class act.... - mikel 22:52:16 06/28/07 ( 16)
- You're right.... - John Elison 06:53:49 06/29/07 ( 9)
- i appreciate that John,.....and...... - mikel 07:05:19 06/29/07 ( 8)
- The one-word answer is, "No!" - John Elison 07:48:43 06/29/07 ( 7)
- RE: The one-word answer is, "No!" - mikel 08:33:59 06/29/07 ( 6)
- RE: The one-word answer is, "No!" - John Elison 10:16:38 06/29/07 ( 5)
- thanks....and one more question. - mikel 11:15:31 06/29/07 ( 4)
- RE: thanks....and one more question. - John Elison 16:13:27 06/29/07 ( 3)
- Cum Ba Ya....there's peace in the valley once more. - mikel 16:25:02 06/29/07 ( 2)
- per Challenge terms---$250 to the audioasylum done. - mikel 11:28:57 07/5/07 ( 1)
- RE: per Challenge terms---$250 to the audioasylum done. - John Elison 18:06:08 07/5/07 ( 0)
- Could you please inform the connections used for playback? - bjh 04:34:37 06/29/07 ( 5)
- RE: Could you please inform the connections used for playback? - mikel 06:44:43 06/29/07 ( 4)
- Thanks. - bjh 07:56:05 06/29/07 ( 3)
- ps. - bjh 08:55:46 06/29/07 ( 2)
- RE: ps. - John Elison 09:33:22 06/29/07 ( 1)
- I don't get it! - bjh 10:23:24 06/29/07 ( 0)
RE: The Rockport Sirius III is one class act.... - Arlekino 19:30:24 06/28/07 ( 0)
Blind Testing - BTW 17:41:38 06/28/07 ( 0)
So, um, guess from the looks of things there's no cordial joint statement in the offing ..?.... nt - J.D. 16:33:54 06/28/07 ( 2)
- Don't count your chickens... - bjh 05:46:57 06/29/07 ( 0)
RE: So, um, guess from the looks of things there's no cordial joint statement in the offing ..?.... nt - Elmo 05:15:09 06/29/07 ( 0)
RE: THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - B.K. 16:14:52 06/28/07 ( 4)
- RE: THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - bjh 16:23:33 06/28/07 ( 3)
- I'll do my part . . .;8^) /nt\ - HenryH 04:18:13 06/29/07 ( 1)
- I'll do my part . . part deux . . . .;8^) /nt\ - HenryH 04:19:16 06/29/07 ( 0)
- i will help with that - OMalley 16:32:05 06/28/07 ( 0)
well - mothra 14:10:13 06/28/07 ( 0)
RE: puzzled by THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - Bruce from DC 13:09:15 06/28/07 ( 6)
- RE: puzzled by THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - GGA 16:39:24 06/28/07 ( 0)
RE: puzzled by THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - Tightwad 13:31:07 06/28/07 ( 4)
- RE: puzzled by THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - JBC 13:37:20 06/28/07 ( 3)
- RE: puzzled by THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - Tightwad 13:50:53 06/28/07 ( 2)
- RE: puzzled by THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - rich121 15:16:57 06/28/07 ( 0)
- RE: puzzled by THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - mothra 13:59:13 06/28/07 ( 0)
Admiration, congratulations, and thanks. - jsm 12:46:12 06/28/07 ( 0)
Hypotheses and Scientific method - JBC 12:28:16 06/28/07 ( 8)
- Five out of six is not statistically significant - Tightwad 12:57:24 06/28/07 ( 7)
- And, the others that did blind testing, got it reversed 100% of the time... (nt) - rich121 15:21:07 06/28/07 ( 0)
- The p-value for determining statistical significant is not set in stone. - bjh 14:56:04 06/28/07 ( 5)
- I think he meant "at least 5 out of 6" - Mark Kelly 18:25:15 06/28/07 ( 4)
- Possible. I was intrepreting the - bjh 18:33:23 06/28/07 ( 3)
- RE: Possible. I was intrepreting the - Tightwad 08:51:56 06/29/07 ( 1)
- I acknowledge my error. - bjh 08:59:48 06/29/07 ( 0)
- My simple calc - Mark Kelly 18:43:29 06/28/07 ( 0)
John! You are awesome... - larryLR 11:35:47 06/28/07 ( 0)
"To be honest, I am still quite surprised that I won the challenge." - soulfood 10:07:19 06/28/07 ( 0)
Let me make sure I understand (and perhaps . . . - Tightwad 09:07:54 06/28/07 ( 1)
- RE: Let me make sure I understand (and perhaps . . . - bjh 10:41:21 06/28/07 ( 0)
Help me out here John - E-Stat 08:21:13 06/28/07 ( 0)
ps. - bjh 07:49:39 06/28/07 ( 0)
RE: THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - bjh 07:19:57 06/28/07 ( 0)
All that I'm sure of is... - EdAInWestOC 05:08:47 06/28/07 ( 1)
- Make mine a double and next round on me .... ;) n/t - Brian_T 01:31:41 06/29/07 ( 0)
The challenge rules created the results.... - tubesforever 21:55:41 06/27/07 ( 14)
- Really? What rule declares that a $100k system must be innacurate? - artemus 22:54:49 06/27/07 ( 6)
- Its simply a matter of physics and material engineering....no flames here - tubesforever 10:07:48 06/28/07 ( 3)
- It's amazing - Story 19:26:05 06/28/07 ( 0)
- As usual ... - bjh 10:48:21 06/28/07 ( 1)
- Or just chatting with an inmate friend..... - tubesforever 11:27:48 06/28/07 ( 0)
If I spent that much money on gear, I would want to see God! n/t - reuben 05:15:56 06/28/07 ( 1)
- to each his own ..... - Elmo 06:42:39 06/28/07 ( 0)
RE: The challenge rules created the results.... - John Elison 22:27:54 06/27/07 ( 6)
- RE: The challenge rules created the results.... - tubesforever 10:26:39 06/28/07 ( 0)
Many many variables.... - rich121 23:41:24 06/27/07 ( 4)
- Rich I will be in the Northwest from 7/15 to 7/21 and would love to meet your group. - tubesforever 11:10:00 06/28/07 ( 0)
RE: Many many variables.... - mothra 04:06:32 06/28/07 ( 2)
- I once tested a half dozen different color dyes to see if I could hear improvement.... - tubesforever 11:11:41 06/28/07 ( 1)
- which ones tasted best? [nt] - OMalley 17:50:58 06/29/07 ( 0)
ya gotta be kidding.....you're laying it all at the feet of darTZeel. - mikel 21:32:19 06/27/07 ( 29)
- I don't know why you'd be surprised. - Rick W 08:59:11 06/28/07 ( 0)
RE: ya gotta be kidding.....you're laying it all at the feet of darTZeel. - John Elison 22:18:14 06/27/07 ( 27)
- Well... - mosin 22:33:56 06/27/07 ( 26)
- as you know, vinyl is equally, if not more "screwed up" by the record companies as digital... - rich121 23:57:22 06/27/07 ( 24)
- RE: as you know, vinyl is equally, if not more "screwed up" by the record companies as digital... - mosin 15:53:52 06/28/07 ( 1)
- Message and pictures sent again.. - rich121 00:48:37 06/29/07 ( 0)
- It's the commercial companies that "screw up" recordings in nearly every format. - Teresa 00:50:48 06/28/07 ( 21)
- As usual... I disagree with how you post.. - rich121 01:06:42 06/28/07 ( 20)
- ditto - blackwax@mac.com 22:22:41 06/28/07 ( 0)
- I am sorry you do not understand but it is a know fact - Teresa 02:02:14 06/28/07 ( 18)
- RE: I am sorry you do not understand but it is a know fact - rich121 05:30:21 06/28/07 ( 1)
- It's the commercial companies that "screw up" recordings in nearly every format. Did you miss the word Nearly? - Teresa 14:59:05 06/28/07 ( 0)
- RE: I am sorry you do not understand but it is a know fact - mothra 03:59:58 06/28/07 ( 15)
- I make do with my commercial LPs until an audiophile version is issued. IT IS ABOUT MUSIC FIRST! - Teresa 15:15:45 06/28/07 ( 14)
- RE: I make do with my commercial LPs until an audiophile version is issued. IT IS ABOUT MUSIC FIRST! - blackwax@mac.com 22:25:48 06/28/07 ( 1)
- What could possibly be dumb about the musical truth? - Teresa 22:45:09 06/28/07 ( 0)
- RE: I make do with my commercial LPs until an audiophile version is issued. IT IS ABOUT MUSIC FIRST! - mothra 17:37:20 06/28/07 ( 0)
- Okie dokie, smokey - Fretless 16:27:15 06/28/07 ( 10)
- If highly compromised commercial LPs sound good on your system you would not like a sound of a Master Tape! - Teresa 17:24:12 06/28/07 ( 9)
- Amazing. How does doddering into second childhood feel anyway? ; )(nt) - Fretless 17:53:49 06/28/07 ( 5)
- If you cannot hear the dramatic increase in resolution that Audiophile LPs offer that means: - Teresa 21:06:58 06/29/07 ( 0)
- Fretless, she's a right nutter and best ignored ... ;) - Brian_T 01:21:56 06/29/07 ( 3)
- It's not nice to call people names. The most important things I do to preserve my LPs. - Teresa 21:16:51 06/29/07 ( 0)
- RE: Fretless, she's a right nutter and best ignored ... ;) - Fretless 08:46:04 06/29/07 ( 1)
- I was just thinking the same thing about you. (nt) - Teresa 21:19:15 06/29/07 ( 0)
- RE: If highly compromised commercial LPs sound good on your system you would not like a sound of a Master Tape! - mothra 17:43:13 06/28/07 ( 2)
- A real audiophile recording as opposed to the major labels rip-off of the word "audiophile" means alot - Teresa 21:54:02 06/28/07 ( 1)
- RE: A real audiophile recording as opposed to the major labels rip-off of the word "audiophile" means alot - mothra 00:37:24 06/29/07 ( 0)
RE: Well... - John Elison 22:41:21 06/27/07 ( 0)
Re: "...Mike's system is... at least 10 times bigger than life." Please clarify... - Abel McCain 21:27:48 06/27/07 ( 0)
who was the walrus ? - J.D. 20:57:24 06/27/07 ( 5)
- RE: who was the walrus ? - J.D. 21:11:59 06/27/07 ( 4)
- RE: who was the walrus ? - mosin 21:18:38 06/27/07 ( 3)
- Is that you Gozer? - JTimothyA 21:44:26 06/27/07 ( 2)
- RE: Is that you Gozer? - mosin 22:11:02 06/27/07 ( 1)
- You may be big in Summaria, but careful, that door swings both way - JTimothyA 22:31:57 06/27/07 ( 0)
Oy...we are still not learning anything new :-) - Penguin 19:36:18 06/27/07 ( 3)
- I hear a difference! - Muzikmike 19:43:47 06/27/07 ( 2)
- I think I've been smellin' that mother for years! ;-) (nt) - John Elison 20:44:53 06/27/07 ( 0)
- never mind the sound!!! - Penguin 19:49:45 06/27/07 ( 0)
It was great to meet you and to be of service... - Ted Smith 18:54:08 06/27/07 ( 1)
- Thanks Ted, you were a godsend... - John Elison 19:02:15 06/27/07 ( 0)
RE: THE ANALOG/DIGITAL CHALLENGE - newyorkp7 18:09:32 06/27/07 ( 1)
- You're Welcome! (nt) - John Elison 18:19:46 06/27/07 ( 0)
Jeezo, John... I just thought... - Muzikmike 18:03:54 06/27/07 ( 3)
- Hey! I like barbecue! What can I say? ;-) - John Elison 19:35:05 06/27/07 ( 2)
- wow, i haven't been here in a while, i sure missed a lot. - mattjk 02:01:18 07/23/07 ( 1)
- Nevermind, I found the challenge post NT. - mattjk 02:14:14 07/23/07 ( 0)