Me again, Richard. Now YOU are misrepresenting, and all still without having actually heard the finished product. I am amazed that anyone grants you any time to make your point, as it is all based on hearsay and judgments. But the Dogma is prety well universal. The "high-frequency thing" was taken from tests of the Garrard players - NOT the
Lencos. When I say I am not sure of this, it is because I have never heard a problem up here, but tests of the Garrard made by magazine reviewers do report some problem there, though this is not reliable as arms and cartridges were not identical. I do not want to say absolutely, becuae I have not heard the
Lencos in every system, necesarily. You exaggerate what I said. As to
Lencos not being comparable to Garrards: the issue here is idler-wheel technology, which is universally dismissed due to rumble by the audio community, except for the Garrard's fans. I explained this at length several times in the thread you cannot seem to keep track of. I pointed to the Garrards because this is what people know of idler wheels, and because they share the same technology, and so this is NOT like comparing apples and oranges, given that the Dogma says that all belt-drives are superior to idler wheels makes it very definitely a case of ALL idler wheels against ALL belt-drives, precisely as I presented it. No misrepresentation. You are puting the cart before the horse, all because of what, really?: that I advised you not to buy a motor-drive from Europe and you did so anyway? That you went on this forum and claimed I didn't know what I was doing and found to your dismay that I did understand materials, as I made clear on my thread, and so you couldn't grandstand?? I think I will publish the answers I sent you so that everyone can clearly see what I truly wrote you. At the end of this reply.
Since most people are barely aware of idler wheels of any sort, I referred to the Garrard, which Sugano did use, to make the point that there is no rumble problem with idler wheels. I will quote from your own last comment here: "What it amounts to, is your claiming that it will (plinth) defy physics and magically divert the rumble from the platter, to the plinth!!! What a joke!!!! The plinth is not even directly connected to the motor/idler wheel/platter.... it is connected to the plate, then the plate is connected to the motor, motor to idler wheel, to platter WHICH IS WHERE THE RUMBLE ENDS UP!!!" So according to your own logic here, no idler-wheel 'table should work, since the Garrard motors as well are directly mounted on the metal top-plate, whcih then shouldn't be addressed by the plinth. Better call Koetsu and let them in on the news. So your claim that I misdirected is in fact a misdirection itself, since your logic leads to the conclusion that Sugano had bad ears. Or are you going to claim that with the Garrard, the motor not being directly mounted to the plinth is no problem while with the Lenco it is? Well, here you change your argument, even though you still have never heard one in a heavy, non-resonant plinth. As to the issue of "vertical" vs "horizontal" rumble, frankly it had never occurred to me, as I simple never heard any rumble. I already addressed this issue at leangth: of what value searching for inaudible rumble: ALL turntables rumble at some level. As to your various "authorities", these are the same authorities who dismissed the idler-wheel principle since the appearance of the belt-drive (the same type as well that claimed that the transistor amp was superior to tubes), so what are these "explanations" worth? So if I understand you correctly, as I pointed out before, you only agree with those who have negative opinions, but with none who actually live with and use Lencos happily, and report no problems. I guess they must have defective hearing as well. I explained at length the meaning of the fellow with the TD124 and Lenco. Was this too complicated for you? Will others also forget this evidence? It is obvious to me at least, that any findings you report have no credibility, no more than any of your arguments.
That said, I here publish the letter I sent you:
"Richard,
Well, I'm not sure precisely which model Lenco he's writing about as the tonearms I've seen so far aren't bad, they're just not great. They are not massive, except at the bearing/tonarm pillar, where the mass doesn't count. He's right about the orientation of the motor, but the issue is not that simple, as the idler wheel is held in place loosely and so shunted off to the side in practice. I've never heard any rumble from a re-built Lenco, this on speakers which I guesstimate to be in the 30 Hz or so area (what are your's?). In fact, I don't think I've heard any rumble from any Lenco, even stock (though I didn't spend a lot of time on this, and it was long ago) so I assume that he is talking about the model with the tinny platter, as opposed to the solid/machined 8-lb platter (which actually feels like 10 pounds or so).
The Lenco L75/L78 has always been considered a good "kitchen-table" project in DIY circles, which highlights the exaggeration of rumble problems as if this were so it would not be so recommended (in fact, the more highly-regarded Dual idler-wheel drives have audible rumble in my experience), it's just that no one thought of popping in a serious arm or of giving it a "Garrard" treatment, which brings me back to the whole "raison-d'etre" of this project: that since everyone is so focussed on the Garrard 301/401, no one has ever tried to get the measure of the Lencos. I have used largely low-output MCs in this rig, and you would think that a low-output cartridge (having an output which is relatively much smaller with respect to any hypothetical rumble) would get swamped by noise, but nary a whisper. In fact, the motor is held by two screws which are permanently in place, but which must be loosened for the spring suspension to perform freely. I suspect that the reviewer did not loosen the screws, that the screws tightened themselves (this happens at long intervals due to the vibration, so a periodic check must be made) or that it was some other model. The Lencos were "high-end" 'tables at the time they were manufactured, and were very expensive (being the LP12s of their day), and shipped across the world in (resonant) Rosewood plinths, so one must assume they sold for a reason, meaning there were some good reviews at the time as well, as those I bought them from in Europe were surgeons, lawyers, etc., wealthy and not fools. And as I pointed out in my thread, when were the Swiss ever the inferiors of the British in engineering? Also, it was a British mag which reviewed the Swiss Lencos against the British Garrards, so I would tend to think that there was quite a bit of bias involved (until quite recently, early 90s or so, American 'tables and mainland European 'tables were quite negatively reviewed in the British press, the British versions always considered superior). And of course, the majority of the audience slavishly follows the mainstream press, including those who work in shops, which is the whole point of such forums as Audiogon.
For actual experience with Lencos, try this thread, where its cost (very expensive) as well as the fact that it is indestructible as well as taken seriously (this stock with original arm) is highlighted: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=d9b91e17063c4a68e2ab84f68e6cae6e&threadid=2955&highlight=. In fact, on another line of thought on this same forum, www.diyaudio.com, someone is accused of not thinking when he "upgrades" from a Lenco L75 to a Micro Seiki on his Quad 57s (still one of the highest-resolution speakers ever made), and then wonders himself if he made a mistake! You can wander through this forum at leisure - a true bullshit-free forum - and find that one fellow runs a Lenco L75 and a Garrard 401 (there goes that Dogma) together, both of which he rates against highly-regarded cult items (top-of-the-line and rare direct-drives far above the SL1200s).
Arms: In fact, I've only ever found the straight arms on the Lenco L78s and L75s, and I would say that they are actually much lower mass overall than current arms, probably rating as low-mass, as most arms were designed for high-compliance MMs at the time. And they are quite brilliant, with excellent horizontal bearings, and an intricate balancing system. Of course, the vertical bearings were rubber blocks and so tended to make the arm sound quite dead, and the knife-edge bearings would eventually cut through the blocks. Probably having arm-blocks machined from metal would make this arm quite a contender, overall, perhaps the equal of the earlier SMEs. So much for that old dog Dogma (Garrards are the only option) and that old dog prejudice.
As to "beware of scammer", well, since this is costing me money and time with absolutely no return except a good fight, then this is not an issue.
The Lenco motor mounting is in fact superior to the Garrard mounting in terms of vibration, as the Lenco motor sits horizontally in a large metal cradle which is suspended by springs, this ingeniously turning upside-down the way things are done now: suspending the entire 'table so that it is isolated from the motor. The motor runs silently, at very high speed, and is machined to extreme Swiss tolerances: it is, along with the platter, the heart of the beast. The motor's gradually-machined spindle is also a work of engineering art, allowing absolutely spot-on perfect speed adjustments from below 16 rpm to above 78, making this a good 'table for every type of lp ever made. There is a lot of prejudice against this 'table even now in high-end shops in Europe: I wonder why? The platter was probably the heaviest made at the time of manufacture (quite wimpy compared to today's monsters, but substantial nevertheless), and I used to hear the high-end gurus talk about how the bearings were consequently ground to dust. I have never found a worn Lenco bearing, though I imagine that without periodic lubrication (I use a heavy-grade synthetic motor oil), this might happen. The bearing housing is quite flimsy, bronze with a simple zinc (?) thrust plate, but the bearing itself is superbly machined from hardened stainless steel, the kind of thing you have to pay thousands today to have included.
So, I hope I have gone some way to allay your fears. I mean, this negative press, which I pointed out in my thread, is the reason the Lencos can be had so cheaply; in fact, as I champion those low in funds or those with other priorities who still wish to have excellent sound quality (liike myself: I put all my money in lengthy voyages to exotic places), I hope I haven't denied them a valuable resource in pointing out the Lenco which otherwise would have enjoyed an extremely long run (they really are indestructible) as bargain-basement DIY projects! In fact, I considered not doing this project for this reason, which came over me in a spur-of-the-moment impulse.
Now those who know me from other threads know I got tired of the "high-end" game a while ago - the chasing after information eventually kills the music in my estimation, and it seems to me that modern designs are largely becoming less and less musical (with honorable exceptions) - so I sold all my high-end stuff (except my high-end 'tables and tonearms and cartridges, I still buy these, as I recently bought a Black Widow tonearm and a NOS Supex MC, as I simply believe that the older designs are better at making music, overall, as they were designed in good part by ear and not by engineering principles, which is the route taken by those with no talent to speak of), and bought a modest system centred on the ASL Wave 8 monoblocks and a pair of Sound Dynamic speakers, with an 80s vintage Pioneer Elite preamp with switchable MM/Mc with different loadings (this was actually superior to a NYAL tube pream I had) a combo which gave me the most musical pleasure I have ever experienced, being reasonably detailed and informative, extremely dynamic with the best Prat I have ever heard, and making ALL my recordings sound good. I am once again on the upgrade path, but within reason and choosing according to music and not information per se, currently having bought the ASL Wave 20 monoblocks - which I am happy to report still time better than almost anything else out there (like the Wave 8s) and gives me a significant increase in bass and detail (I am ambivalent about this) - an ASL Mini Phono which times better than my Pioneer, BBC-derived large monitors from a now-defunct Canadian speaker manufacturer which had collaborated with Rega in the design (extremely tonally neutral, very detailed, a tube-friendly 8-ohm sensitive speaker with excellent dynamics and Prat), which go down to a strong 40 Hz, perhaps 35. Personally, as I wrote in my thread, I have never heard a high-end 'table which even comes close to my re-built Lencos in terms of focus, power, bass, or overall detail and imaging. This is a function of the speed accuracy, and actually pisses me off, as why have a collection of 'tables at all, which I enjoy?
Now, all that said (I am keeping this in my records for future use, sorry for the length), the solid plinth I have designed goes in stages, with each succussive layer have less cut from it than the one above, thus minimizing resonances caused by cavities, and maximizing mass per cubic inch. I have experimented with various materials and designs, and have found the differences inaudible in any system, two "high-end" friends of mine using large Joseph Audio speakers, one tubed electronics, the other solid state. But I believe the best formulation so far is a simple combination of MDF, a total of 3" bonded together, with a top plate of Corian, which is the formula I am following now, but substituting maple-plywood for two sheets of the MDF for increased constrained-layer-damping. Remember, we are trying to damp whatever energies are coming off the motor, so don't resort to pure marble or some such other hard, ringing material. Besides, this project is meant to be easy, and the harder the materials, the more difficult the job. MDF is easily machined (but wear a mask and do it in a garage outside the house), is dense and heavy, and comes to a beautiful finish in the end. Ditto Corian, and ditto mask and outdoors! MDF is a large component in many high-end 'tables, including VPI, Roksan and Well Tempered. The formulation I am giving out on my thread is good, and follows high-end principles closely: constrained-layer damping, Corian which is superior to acrylic (being a compressed vinyl formulation which is denser and more inert), MDF, mass, and finally finish, which is of a high standard, much, much more so than the VPI body which was exhibited on my thread.
Hoping I haven't given you too much food for thought, feel free to ask questions, as I tend to assume more knowledge from people than is probably actually the case.
Thanks,
John
> From: "RICHARD FIne"
> To:
> Subject: Re: L75 plinth
> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:04:58 -0800
>
> John,
>
> Here is an email I received from a poster on Audio Asylum. I had written a post, asking what materials would make the best plinth (for getting rid of the resonance). I have gotten many answers, also from shop owners who used to work on them, stating that the rumble was just too great to overcome.
> By the way, what does your system consist of? I'm just curious.
> I have:
> Sony SCD-1 SACD/CD
> Bel Canto eVo 2 amplifer
> Audible Illusions Modulus 3A Pre-amplifier
> Green Mountain Audio "Continuum 3" Speakers (On the way)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Richard Fine
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bon@ics.mq.edu.au
> To: rich_121@msn.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 7:31 PM
> Subject: L75 plinth
>
>
> Audio Asylum Email from Bon:
>
> Richard,
>
> I saw your post on VA about a plinth for the Lenco L75. My advice is that
> it's not worth the bother. This TT was around when I first became
> interested in audio. It was a contemporary of the Garrard 401, Thorens
> TD125 and TD 150, Dual 1209, Original AR. This was late '60's, early '70's.
> I remember it had a heavy platter, very massive tonearm, and an unusual
> method of speed control. On one comparative UK magazine test (Hi-Fi Sound,
> long gone I'm afraid), it came out very badly. The tonearm mass was
> excessive, over 20 grams as I recall, and the friction levels way too high.
>
> But the killer was the rumble. The speed control method, was a vertical
> running idler wheel, which could be moved along a tapered motor shaft for
> speed variation. Seems like a good idea, but with the idler running
> vertically against the underside of the platter, the main motor rumble
> component is vertical (out-of-phase) and is coupled directly to the LP and
> cartridge. The belt drives of the day wiped the floor wth them. There is no
> way to suppress this with a massive plinth, which is why I guess, you
> posted on VA.
> My advice is to move on. If you are interested in idler drives, about the
> only ones still worth looking at are the Garrad 301/401, Thorens TD 124.
>
> Regards
>
> Bon
>
>
> Beware of scammers:
>
> http://www.AudioAsylum.com/scripts/d.pl?cgi-bin/html/scam.html "
