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Speaker Asylum: New B&W 700 Series = More of the same by layman General speaker questions for audio and home theater. |
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Well, I have read over the B&W "White Paper" for their new "700" series and I must say that I am disappointed.I appreciate B&W's honesty and candor concerning their design goals, and their (honest) assessment of whether (or not) these design goals have been met. I also appreciate the accuracy and honesty of the specs and measurements that B&W has published on the speakers (B&W publish honest information about all their products). It's rare in the industry, but B&W can be relied on to publish "truthful" specs and measurements (not the more common "wishful thinking" type specs and measurements).
B&W says that they scrapped the "CDM" designation because they wanted to start over with the new series (to break completely with the prior series), but after reading the "White Paper," it's clear to me that the 700 series represents an evolution of the CDM concept rather than a revolution. The "updates" are purely cosmetic.
Here are my main gripes with the series (and with 95% of current B&W products in fact):
1. Why did B&W decide to continue to use the cheap sounding aluminum dome tweeters that they have been using for some time? The high (4 kHz) crossover frequency to the tweeter is a clue that the new tweeter does not behave any better than the old. I would have preferred to see a tweeter that could work down to a lower frequency. Such a tweeter would have exhibited better self-damping to resist ringing, break-up and distortion at the bottom of its passband. These (distortion artifacts) are all too audible with existing B&W tweeters. B&W can do better. The current tweeters do not compare well with current Scanspeak, Vifa, Seas, Morel, Dynaudio, and Audax metal and fabric domes (just to name a few).
My advice to B&W: get a better sounding, better behaving tweeter. The B&W metal dome is one of the weakest ingredients of current B&W speakers because the tweeters have a tendency to sound clinical, dry, edgy and fatiguing (which is a problem with tweeter performance i.e. self-damping, as well as voicing).
2. Why does B&W continue to use kevlar drivers? The White Paper goes on and on about the tensile strength of kevlar and its application in bulletproof vests but to me these drivers don't sound "right." Any driver that's designed to flex and break-up in band (as the kevlar drivers do) is INTRODUCING distortion artifacts into the sound. The kevlar drivers show a consistent peak at the top of their passband, which indicates that the drivers are no longer behaving as pure pistons (introducing distortion), the drivers are beaming at the top of their passband, and the drivers are being overworked (the crossover frequency needs to be lower). B&W can do better.
3. Why does B&W continue to use such a high crossover frequency (~4 kHz)? The high crossover frequency makes life easy on the tweeter but increases the stresses and strains on the bass/mid-range driver. Furthermore, the high cross ensures that the mid-range tonal balance will change as you move off the speaker's reference axis. The drivers beam at the top of their passband. The speakers produce uneven power response. Listeners positioned off the speaker's reference axis will hear a completely different (and less accurate) tonal balance than listeners positioned in the "sweet-spot." The crossover frequencies of B&W speakers are consistently too high and ensure the existence of an in-room suckout around the crossover frequency.
My advice to B&W: use a lower crossover frequency or improve your tweeters and use smaller (4-3 inch) mid-range drivers. That's the only way to prevent all the beaming and abrupt dispersion pattern changes (around the crossover frequency).
After reading the "White Paper" carefully, I can only conclude that the 700 series is a cosmetic update (more of the same) of the CDM series rather than a radical re-think. I think a radical re-think is called for given the dryness, fatigue and lack of timbral accuracy that afflicts B&W speakers. The design goals simply have not been met.
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Topic - New B&W 700 Series = More of the same - layman 07:33:50 09/2/03 ( 127)
- Re: New B&W 700 Series = More of the same - audiodsn@swcp.com 15:26:37 09/4/03 ( 5)
- Is this negative campaign or what? - audioguy@techstopnet.com 22:08:47 09/5/03 ( 3)
- Re: Is this negative campaign or what? - audiodsn@swcp.com 13:04:03 09/6/03 ( 0)
- Measurement Data - layman 10:00:05 09/6/03 ( 1)
- That's what I was talking about! - audioguy@techstopnet.com 19:14:33 09/6/03 ( 0)
audiodsn....GET OUT OF HERE MAN!! (nt) - ramsesm@ge.com 07:26:31 09/5/03 ( 0)
B&W's Best - layman 12:06:36 09/4/03 ( 3)
- Re: B&W's Best - ts 15:12:51 09/4/03 ( 1)
- S-805 - layman 19:35:57 09/4/03 ( 0)
Re: B&W's Best - John Ashman 15:10:04 09/4/03 ( 0)
Layman...GET OUT OF HERE MAN!! (nt) - ramsesm@ge.com 09:37:06 09/4/03 ( 0)
Why did you buy B&W? - Pete H 14:56:48 09/3/03 ( 0)
I expected info, not a bashing :) - audioguy@techstopnet.com 09:06:33 09/3/03 ( 2)
- Agreed; it's a bashing... - MAP 11:39:50 09/3/03 ( 0)
Well said (nt) - George_Bush 11:11:28 09/3/03 ( 0)
Re: New B&W 700 Series = More of the same - Bombaywalla 07:32:47 09/3/03 ( 18)
- Wow wits are low... - RGA 19:07:37 09/3/03 ( 16)
- Re: Wow wits are low... - Bombaywalla 08:08:59 09/4/03 ( 15)
- Re: Wow wits are low... - RGA 13:08:05 09/4/03 ( 8)
- Re: Wow wits are low... - Bombaywalla 06:45:05 09/5/03 ( 7)
- Just confused with your points on Kevlar... - audioguy@techstopnet.com 23:32:17 09/5/03 ( 3)
- Kevlar drivers: Facts vs. Claims - layman 09:04:26 09/6/03 ( 2)
- Thanks for pointing that out (nt) - audioguy@techstopnet.com 19:18:07 09/6/03 ( 0)
- Re: Kevlar drivers: Facts vs. Claims - Bombaywalla 11:14:42 09/6/03 ( 0)
- Well - RGA 17:04:57 09/5/03 ( 2)
Re: Wow wits are low... - Samuel 12:22:50 09/4/03 ( 5)
- Re: Wow wits are low... - Bombaywalla 12:40:49 09/4/03 ( 4)
- Re: Wow wits are low... - Samuel 16:44:17 09/4/03 ( 2)
- Re: Wow wits are low... - Bombaywalla 06:59:42 09/5/03 ( 1)
- Re: Wow wits are low... - RGA 17:13:45 09/5/03 ( 0)
- Well i agree with you since all - RGA 13:26:24 09/4/03 ( 0)
What a hoot! - Pete H 14:16:36 09/3/03 ( 0)
Re: Kevlar - Godzilla. 07:06:20 09/3/03 ( 1)
- While I agree - Jon L 16:58:12 09/3/03 ( 0)
Ok Layman, Having read nearly all of this thread, - Bandit 05:59:40 09/3/03 ( 10)
- Finally a sane question - layman 06:46:55 09/3/03 ( 9)
- B&W's Definition of Accuray - layman 13:15:30 09/4/03 ( 2)
- Re: B&W's Definition of Accuray - audiodsn@swcp.com 15:39:55 09/4/03 ( 0)
- I don't see any mention of accuracy. - TAFKA Steve 15:28:24 09/4/03 ( 0)
one more definition of accurate... - demetrio 09:27:29 09/4/03 ( 1)
- Re: one more definition of accurate... - David Aiken 13:17:14 09/4/03 ( 0)
Another definition of accuracy. - TAFKA Steve 17:17:51 09/3/03 ( 0)
But then live music varies a lot too. - Bandit 07:40:42 09/3/03 ( 0)
ARE YOU SURE..... - adalito 07:40:17 09/3/03 ( 1)
- I meant to say "1 hundred", not "100 hundred". sorry...(nt) - adalito 07:48:18 09/3/03 ( 0)
Agreed! - DD 00:22:33 09/3/03 ( 0)
Re: New B&W 700 Series = More of the same - LarryB 16:38:41 09/2/03 ( 0)
They say women have better hearing... - David S. 16:00:57 09/2/03 ( 24)
- Re: They say women have better hearing... - layman 17:17:09 09/2/03 ( 23)
- American cars sell well - RGA 23:34:15 09/2/03 ( 21)
- Re: American cars sell well - 213Cobra 14:33:16 09/3/03 ( 3)
- Re: American cars sell well - Tom Brennan 16:58:02 09/3/03 ( 2)
- Re: American cars sell well - RGA 20:09:32 09/3/03 ( 0)
- Re: American cars sell well - 213Cobra 18:26:46 09/3/03 ( 0)
- Re: American cars sell well - 7V 12:25:28 09/3/03 ( 1)
- Re: American cars sell well - RGA 19:36:23 09/3/03 ( 0)
Mercedes, Germany and Taxis - Bandit 01:21:50 09/3/03 ( 14)
- Re: Mercedes, Germany and Taxis - 213Cobra 15:15:04 09/3/03 ( 3)
- Every time I exit Luxembourg Airport there is a string of taxis - Bandit 03:45:29 09/4/03 ( 1)
- Re: Every time I exit Luxembourg Airport there is a string of taxis - RGA 16:34:57 09/4/03 ( 0)
- Re: Mercedes, Germany and Taxis - RGA 20:30:18 09/3/03 ( 0)
Re: Mercedes, Germany and Taxis - RGA 11:41:17 09/3/03 ( 9)
- Remember Ricardo Montalban (sp?) touting... - Jimmy C. 14:37:53 09/3/03 ( 7)
- American autos HAVE come a LONG way...why - RGA 20:25:01 09/3/03 ( 6)
- Yeah, your Escort wasn't the epitome... - Jimmy C. 04:15:38 09/4/03 ( 2)
- Re: Yeah, your Escort wasn't the epitome... - hwahlee 19:19:51 09/4/03 ( 0)
- Re: Yeah, your Escort wasn't the epitome... - RGA 16:01:53 09/4/03 ( 0)
- Re: American autos HAVE come a LONG way...why - 213Cobra 23:58:39 09/3/03 ( 0)
Re: American autos HAVE come a LONG way...why - Tom Brennan 22:04:36 09/3/03 ( 1)
- Re: American autos HAVE come a LONG way...why - RGA 16:24:47 09/4/03 ( 0)
I'll take a Honda S2000 with my Signature 805s please! (nt) - enzo 12:27:28 09/3/03 ( 0)
Bose sells in the US due to marketing... - David S. 17:48:28 09/2/03 ( 0)
Your credentials please! - RGA 13:21:51 09/2/03 ( 12)
- Whoa! Back the train up a second... - Jimmy C. 15:31:15 09/2/03 ( 3)
- Re: Whoa! Back the train up a second... - RGA 18:19:53 09/2/03 ( 2)
- Re: Whoa! Back the train up a second... - layman 19:19:58 09/2/03 ( 1)
- Re: Whoa! Back the train up a second... - RGA 19:46:21 09/2/03 ( 0)
Stepped on your toes did I? - layman 13:35:24 09/2/03 ( 0)
Re: Your credentials please! - layman 13:31:39 09/2/03 ( 5)
- Re: Your credentials please! - RGA 13:40:10 09/2/03 ( 4)
- Re: Your credentials please! - layman 14:21:11 09/2/03 ( 3)
- Re: Your credentials please! - RGA 18:31:58 09/2/03 ( 2)
- Cheap shot... - tpcarter 19:37:57 09/2/03 ( 1)
- Re: Cheap shot... - RGA 20:05:09 09/2/03 ( 0)
I don't want to sound harsh - RGA 13:31:28 09/2/03 ( 0)
Re: you nailed it! - Iantastic 12:05:08 09/2/03 ( 6)
- Why - RGA 13:34:50 09/2/03 ( 5)
- Re: Why - Iantastic 22:06:57 09/2/03 ( 4)
- Re: Why - RGA 23:05:29 09/2/03 ( 3)
- Re: I wrote AN UK... - Iantastic 12:07:19 09/4/03 ( 2)
- Re: I wrote AN UK... - RGA 21:22:52 09/4/03 ( 1)
- Re: I wrote AN UK... - Iantastic 21:48:04 09/4/03 ( 0)
Oh , But Yes They Did Meet Their Design Goals ... - ka7niq 10:27:26 09/2/03 ( 4)
- Re: Oh , But Yes They Did Meet Their Design Goals (LOL) - layman 10:58:43 09/2/03 ( 3)
- Re: Oh , But Yes They Did Meet Their Design Goals (LOL) - Godzilla. 07:34:39 09/3/03 ( 0)
- More on power response - layman 13:00:54 09/2/03 ( 1)
- Yes, yes, and - klausDK 06:25:24 09/3/03 ( 0)
Great Report Layman! - neoprufrok 09:25:09 09/2/03 ( 0)
Praise - layman 07:52:07 09/2/03 ( 26)
- One more thing - layman 08:02:48 09/2/03 ( 25)
- Layman... - Tim Stanley 14:47:34 09/2/03 ( 4)
- Get a grip - layman 14:58:22 09/2/03 ( 3)
- Re: Get a grip - RGA 18:55:42 09/2/03 ( 2)
- Re: Get a grip - layman 19:22:32 09/2/03 ( 1)
- Re: Get a grip - RGA 20:10:29 09/2/03 ( 0)
- Re: One more thing - Samuel 14:38:50 09/2/03 ( 19)
- you guys are intense :) i love it - spl 02:59:17 09/10/03 ( 0)
- Chill out - layman 14:55:48 09/2/03 ( 17)
- Re: Chill out - Samuel 15:05:10 09/2/03 ( 16)
- In all fairness, being successful doesn't necessarily equal audio quality (nt) - robotk 15:26:18 09/2/03 ( 3)
- as much as it is going to pain me to say this - RGA 19:14:43 09/2/03 ( 2)
- Don't forget, B&Ws are widely available, recognized and look cool>>> - robotk 20:13:44 09/2/03 ( 1)
- Re: Don't forget, B&Ws are widely available, recognized and look cool>>> - RGA 23:18:37 09/2/03 ( 0)
- Re: Chill out - layman 15:10:55 09/2/03 ( 11)
- Re: Chill out - Samuel 16:41:14 09/2/03 ( 10)
- Re: Chill out - layman 17:08:42 09/2/03 ( 9)
- Re: Chill out - Samuel 18:21:00 09/2/03 ( 8)
- Re: Chill out - audiodsn@swcp.com 13:09:56 09/6/03 ( 7)
- Re: Chill out - Samuel 01:34:22 09/7/03 ( 6)
- Re: Chill out - audiodsn@swcp.com 05:40:33 09/7/03 ( 5)
- Re: Chill out - Samuel 14:06:59 09/7/03 ( 4)
- Re: Chill out - audiodsn@swcp.com 21:28:02 09/7/03 ( 3)
- Re: Chill out - Samuel 23:39:37 09/7/03 ( 2)
- Re: Chill out - audiodsn@swcp.com 07:53:48 09/8/03 ( 1)
- Re: Chill out - Samuel 10:24:13 09/8/03 ( 0)