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In Reply to: RE: Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? posted by JimOfOakCreek on January 18, 2008 at 07:14:05:
I have worked on the internals of several USB chips, I can guarantee you that a USB bus is very definitely an analog signal! Everything those pulses go through degrade said pulses. What hits the receiver doesn't look anything like a theoretical square wave. Dielectric dispersion, skin effect and reflections due to impedance discontinuities all mess up the pulse edges. Those pulse edges are what the PLLs in the receiver see, the more degraded they are the harder it is for the PLLs to lock onto the signal and the more jitter they generate in the clock signal coming out.
Getting a USB chip to work well is actually much harder than some of the other much higher data rate busses I've worked with. The higher speed busses have much higher tolerances on every part of the system, the tolerances in USB are so lax (and frequently those are not even met in the real world) it gets very difficult to make it all work for all the corner cases. For example exactly how the wires in the cable get connected to the connectors make a huge difference in the impedance of the cable. Many cables do not get this right, causing significant impedance discontinuities which cause reflections at the connectors. These reflections significantly change the edge timing, causing jitter on the recovered clock. Interestingly some cheap cables do it better than the expensive ones, cost seems to have relatively little to do with whether a cable "gets it right".
The connection between the USB connector and the USB chip is another black hole. Very rarely is the impedance properly maintained on the board, again giving rise to reflections.
Now you may say that this shouldn't make any difference if the equipment is designed right. To some degree thats true, if asynchronous mode is used then as long as the bits get across correctly then it doesn't matter. BUT there are darn few devices out there using asynchronous mode (or some other custom mode that syncs the data transfer to the local clock). The reality is that most USB implementations out there use adaptive mode which IS affected by what is going on with the bus. In this case there is a big difference between SHOULD and reality.
With the asynch code that Gordon has written and reclocking devices such as the ones Steve has these problems will occur in fewer and fewer pieces of gear, so long term there is hope that this state of affairs will go away, but for now, most USB DACs out there WILL be sensitive to cables, connectors, power supplies in computers, whats going on IN the computer, whether your dog is laying on the cable etc.
John S.
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Topic - Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? - Dynaudio_Rules 16:13:09 01/16/08 ( 63)
- RE: Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? - BTE 23:19:34 01/20/08 ( 0)
Just a few things to consider - Gordon Rankin 12:43:37 01/18/08 ( 1)
- RE: Just a few things to consider - audioengr 15:58:56 01/19/08 ( 0)
RE: Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? - Mercman 06:57:30 01/18/08 ( 10)
- Where do you find Belkin Pro Gold USB cables? - Recorder 09:14:14 01/18/08 ( 9)
- Here - audioengr 16:10:27 01/19/08 ( 5)
- RE: Here (Pure AV Silver comparison?) - Sourcean 00:29:32 01/20/08 ( 0)
- Comparison to Kimber USB? - Recorder 16:18:38 01/19/08 ( 3)
- RE: Comparison to Kimber USB? - audioengr 11:21:25 01/20/08 ( 0)
- RE: Comparison to Kimber USB? - Mercman 16:27:45 01/19/08 ( 1)
- Thank you. That was helpful. - Recorder 17:25:42 01/19/08 ( 0)
RE: Where do you find Belkin Pro Gold USB cables? - Mercman 10:12:50 01/18/08 ( 2)
- RE: Where do you find Belkin Pro Gold USB cables? - panhead 08:07:16 01/19/08 ( 0)
RE: Where do you find Belkin Pro Gold USB cables? - Recorder 14:47:55 01/18/08 ( 0)
yep - bullethead 16:51:19 01/17/08 ( 1)
- RE: yep - Dynaudio_Rules 17:12:24 01/17/08 ( 0)
RE: Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? - audioengr 11:14:24 01/17/08 ( 23)
- RE: Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? - John Swenson 13:48:10 01/18/08 ( 3)
- RE: Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? - audioengr 15:47:05 01/19/08 ( 0)
- Help on These Wires NEEDED - Dynaudio_Rules 14:19:38 01/18/08 ( 1)
- RE: Help on These Wires NEEDED - John Swenson 16:25:53 01/18/08 ( 0)
RE: Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? - JimOfOakCreek 17:07:02 01/17/08 ( 18)
- RE: Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? - audioengr 22:58:51 01/17/08 ( 17)
- RE: Anyone Here Try Any After Market USB Cords??? - JimOfOakCreek 07:14:05 01/18/08 ( 16)
- The difference - audioengr 15:51:16 01/19/08 ( 5)
- No, You Are DEAD Wrong! - JimOfOakCreek 13:36:42 01/20/08 ( 4)
- I give up. Go back to school. - audioengr 22:35:28 01/23/08 ( 3)
- RE: I give up. Go back to school. BYE! - JimOfOakCreek 19:24:16 01/24/08 ( 2)
- RE: I give up. Go back to school. BYE! - Dawnrazor 20:31:40 01/24/08 ( 1)
- RE: I give up. Go back to school. BYE! - JimOfOakCreek 13:59:04 01/25/08 ( 0)
- USB cables and sound - John Swenson 01/18/08 13:40:40 01/18/08 ( 9)
- Jim Swenson: thanks for your clear and informative response... - -3db 08:51:50 01/19/08 ( 1)
- John sorry, John not Jim: my apologies: i will learn to read...nt - -3db 08:53:25 01/19/08 ( 0)
- RE: USB cables and sound - JimOfOakCreek 19:04:14 01/18/08 ( 6)
- you still dont get it - audioengr 15:53:36 01/19/08 ( 3)
- YOU still dont get it - JimOfOakCreek 05:19:54 01/21/08 ( 0)
- RE: you still dont get it - Dawnrazor 23:34:06 01/19/08 ( 1)
- RE: you still dont get it - JimOfOakCreek 13:39:57 01/20/08 ( 0)
- RE: USB cables and sound - panhead 08:26:51 01/19/08 ( 1)
- RE: USB cables and sound - Dawnrazor 11:05:47 01/19/08 ( 0)
My Findings - Dynaudio_Rules 09:17:00 01/17/08 ( 3)
- So, what was the difference? It was much worse - Quiet Earth 11:03:39 01/17/08 ( 2)
- RE: So, what was the difference? It was much worse - Dynaudio_Rules 11:39:53 01/17/08 ( 1)
- Similar experience, but with DVI computer... - mpathus 17:49:49 01/17/08 ( 0)
Koolaid - creativepart 08:08:11 01/17/08 ( 6)
- RE: Koolaid - CD 13:46:13 01/17/08 ( 4)
- RE: Koolaid - JimOfOakCreek 16:50:37 01/17/08 ( 3)
- RE: Koolaid - CD 22:41:23 01/17/08 ( 1)
- RE: Koolaid - JimOfOakCreek 07:18:25 01/18/08 ( 0)
- RE: Koolaid - Dynaudio_Rules 17:43:27 01/17/08 ( 0)
RE: Koolaid - JimOfOakCreek 10:43:12 01/17/08 ( 0)
Yes, but only to debunk the idea that there is a difference... - Scrith 23:10:28 01/16/08 ( 3)
- Try this - audioengr 11:17:34 01/17/08 ( 2)
- Not only 28ga, But No Ferrite Choke - Dynaudio_Rules 06:17:35 01/18/08 ( 1)
- Ferrites - audioengr 15:55:22 01/19/08 ( 0)
You read my mind . . . - Quiet Earth 20:12:15 01/16/08 ( 0)
Kimber Kable - edward 19:52:35 01/16/08 ( 1)
- RE: Kimber Kable - mr. woodford 14:21:51 01/17/08 ( 0)
I went on a long journey - Presto 17:38:09 01/16/08 ( 4)
- Placebo - Dynaudio_Rules 18:03:54 01/16/08 ( 3)
- RE: Placebo - Godzilla. 18:05:55 01/16/08 ( 2)
- RE: Placebo - laznos 19:57:47 01/16/08 ( 0)
- RE: Placebo - Dynaudio_Rules 18:11:22 01/16/08 ( 0)