Hi All,Last time this was mentioned we had the fortune of Earl Geddes offering up some very interesting insights and experiences. Unfortunately I was quite busy at the time and wasn't able to participate in the discussion. There is no question that many horns which have made it to market have quite erratic frequency responses for a variety of reasons, some of which will certainly have an affect on the subjective imaging and soundstaging.
If we are interested in better understanding the objections of those who have not heard well implemented horn systems, we need to understand the ramifications of our horns' directivity. On the plus side, well controlled and relatively constant directivity should yield a more intimate and clear sound through reduced early reflections. The reduction of early reflections makes sounds more distinct by reducing the "noise" the room makes in response to a sound. Subjectively, many describe a system with more directivity as sounding "quieter" with more dynamic contrast which was previously masked by reflections within the room. This is old news to fans of horn loudspeakers, yet it is important to remember when setting up systems, and explains some of the differences from more conventional speakers.
Let's consider simple left to right staging of a stereo pair. In many of the audiophile rags, we commonly read about the soundstage extending beyond the edges of the speakers and out to the width of the room. Other than the use of Q-Sound or the like, how is this possible? Simple: Side wall reflections create "image shifts" which give the perception of sound coming from an even wider space. For us to hear some directional que there must be a source of sound coming from that direction (with exception of methods like Q-Sound). If you have some fairly sizeable, constant directivity horns, this is an easy effect to demonstrate.
Start with the pair aimed such that the first reflection outside each speaker is outside the pattern of the horn. In most cases this results in the subjective sound of the stage extending speaker to speaker, maybe just outside the speakers. Now aim the speakers more forward such that the first reflection is now just inside the pattern of the horn. It may not sound as distinct and clear, but the stage is generally percieved to extend wider toward the walls which are now reflecting more energy. Obviously the better pattern control the speaker has, the more dramatic the effect.
Another subjective complaint of many audiophiles is the lack of "depth" from horn systems. Many have been romanced by the mystical effect where the soundstage seems to expand behind the location of the speakers. Again, these directional cues have to come from somewhere. Coincidentally, there was a significant push to make speakers very narrow in the interest of enhancing this effect. A narrow front baffle makes for very limited front to back directivity, making the horizontal dispersion nearly omni for much of the range. This makes for very significant early reflections from the front wall, as well as second order reflections which first strike the back wall, then side wall, and then on to the listener. Of course this is a double edged sword, as this expanding effect causes a huge increase in the reflected energy, lowering the direct to reflected ratio of sound. Clarity is lost, and the room ends up having equal or more effect on the sound as the response of the speaker.
Fortunately multi channel surround system doesn't rely so heavily on the room to provide additional signals to create a soundstage. Here we actually place speakers so engineers can deliberately place sounds and use speakers from multiple directions to create the acoustic effect desired.
The point being, once you have a nice set of horns, keep in mind exactly how they are interacting with your room, and don't fall prey to "classic" setup practices of the audiophiles.
Cheers,
Mark Seaton
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Topic - Revisiting Horn Soundstaging & Imaging - Mark Seaton 13:33:36 12/31/04 (88)
- Dissing the dissers - Pooge 20:24:05 01/4/05 (4)
- Re: Dis disser. - Paul Eizik 16:52:32 01/5/05 (0)
- NO not well said - rjd 10:20:58 01/5/05 (1)
- Re: NO not well said - Pooge 18:05:56 01/5/05 (0)
- Well Said. (NT) - AR 22:25:18 01/4/05 (0)
- dam my horns image - Kloss 06:19:36 01/3/05 (25)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - KerrB 16:01:10 01/4/05 (24)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - Pooge 20:27:01 01/4/05 (23)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - KerrB 21:21:23 01/4/05 (22)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - KerrB 09:40:09 01/5/05 (21)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - tomservo 07:17:24 01/8/05 (20)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - KerrB 21:33:52 01/8/05 (9)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - Pooge 05:27:11 01/9/05 (6)
- Re: dam my horns image -Moi Troi ! - Paul Eizik 16:47:38 01/9/05 (1)
- Re: dam my horns image -Moi Troi ! - Pooge 19:20:18 01/9/05 (0)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - KerrB 13:41:35 01/9/05 (3)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - Pooge 14:28:20 01/9/05 (2)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - KerrB 10:48:22 01/11/05 (0)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - KerrB 09:31:22 01/10/05 (0)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - John Sheerin 22:05:04 01/8/05 (1)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - KerrB 12:21:03 01/9/05 (0)
- Re: dam my horns image - me too ! - Pooge 09:07:59 01/8/05 (9)
- Re: dam my horns image - me three ! - tomservo 11:27:29 01/8/05 (8)
- Re: dam my horns image - me three ! - Pooge 12:07:50 01/8/05 (7)
- Re: dam my horns image - me three ! - tomservo 14:10:39 01/8/05 (6)
- Waveguide geometries - Pooge 06:52:28 01/9/05 (3)
- Re: Waveguide geometries - tomservo 16:13:40 01/9/05 (0)
- Re: Waveguide geometries - Pooge 07:17:12 01/9/05 (1)
- Re: Waveguide geometries - Pooge 13:52:32 01/9/05 (0)
- Re: HOM's - John Sheerin 21:22:52 01/8/05 (1)
- Re: HOM's - tomservo 16:40:24 01/9/05 (0)
- Re: Revisiting Horn Soundstaging & Imaging - hulkss 16:46:23 01/2/05 (0)
- Re: Revisiting Horn Soundstaging & Imaging - EGeddes 14:11:02 01/2/05 (22)
- Please ignore the trolls - Paul Joppa 09:42:55 01/3/05 (1)
- Re: Please ignore the trolls - EGeddes 09:53:01 01/7/05 (0)
- Question for our learned Dr. Geddes - eso 20:35:08 01/2/05 (5)
- Re: Question for our learned Dr. Geddes - EGeddes 21:01:15 01/2/05 (4)
- Re: Question for our learned Dr. Geddes - eso 23:27:27 01/2/05 (3)
- Re: Question for our learned Dr. Geddes - EGeddes 06:49:39 01/3/05 (2)
- Actually... - eso 08:33:37 01/3/05 (1)
- Eso read the reply to my post nt. - Robert Hamel 09:00:17 01/3/05 (0)
- I must be missing something - Robert Hamel 19:25:20 01/2/05 (1)
- Re: I must be missing something - EGeddes 20:46:09 01/2/05 (0)
- Re: Revisiting Horn Soundstaging & Imaging - Paul Eizik 18:43:32 01/2/05 (1)
- Re: Revisiting Horn Soundstaging & Imaging - EGeddes 20:36:19 01/2/05 (0)
- Let me get this straight - eso 17:51:39 01/2/05 (9)
- It's all a matter of degree and purpose of design... - AR 15:09:52 01/3/05 (8)
- Re: It's all a matter of degree and purpose of design... - eso 16:54:22 01/3/05 (7)
- I don't believe... - AR 11:05:17 01/4/05 (0)
- Re: We are not alone...& Ping Mike Baker. - Paul Eizik 19:07:25 01/3/05 (5)
- Re: We are not alone...& Ping Mike Baker. - eso 19:46:54 01/3/05 (4)
- Re: "Your worst nightmare". - Paul Eizik 15:57:34 01/4/05 (3)
- Re: "Your worst nightmare". - Steve Schell 23:59:29 01/4/05 (2)
- Re: History lessons. - Paul Eizik 15:44:01 01/5/05 (0)
- Re: "Your worst nightmare". - rjd 10:07:27 01/5/05 (0)
- Re: Go mono - Tom Brennan 20:21:30 01/1/05 (3)
- Re: Go mono - freddyi 09:44:43 01/2/05 (0)
- Re: Go mono - DBE 04:38:26 01/2/05 (0)
- Heretic!! The comfy chair for you!!nt. - Robert Hamel 21:14:00 01/1/05 (0)
- Re: Revisiting Horn Soundstaging & Imaging - eso 16:36:40 12/31/04 (28)
- Re: Exactly - nothing more than a crutch.. - CScottG 17:32:03 12/31/04 (26)
- Re: Party line. - Paul Eizik 14:48:04 01/1/05 (10)
- Re: Party line. - CScottG 23:49:01 01/1/05 (9)
- Re: Party line. - Paul Eizik 12:16:11 01/2/05 (5)
- Re: Party line. - CScottG 15:27:32 01/2/05 (4)
- Re: Fair enough. - Paul Eizik 18:21:07 01/3/05 (0)
- English 101 - eso 18:13:13 01/2/05 (2)
- Re: Time 101 - CScottG 20:02:49 01/2/05 (1)
- Agree - toxicport.e 05:31:32 01/3/05 (0)
- Re: Party line. - what does the Karlson - uh - do? - freddyi 11:53:06 01/2/05 (2)
- Re: Party line. - what does the Karlson - uh - do? - CScottG 16:59:33 01/2/05 (1)
- Re: Party line. - what does the Karlson - uh - do? - freddyi 20:42:48 01/2/05 (0)
- Re: Exactly - nothing more than a crutch.. - Mark Seaton 11:39:13 01/1/05 (8)
- Throwing out the baby with the bathwater? - Charles Hansen 13:58:04 01/1/05 (2)
- Re: Throwing out the baby with the bathwater? - stevekozaki@aol.com 22:48:23 01/2/05 (0)
- Re: Throwing out the baby with the bathwater? - CScottG 15:33:52 01/1/05 (0)
- Re: Exactly - nothing more than a crutch.. - rjd 12:31:42 01/1/05 (4)
- Re: Exactly - nothing more than a crutch.. - freddyi 13:30:15 01/1/05 (2)
- Re: Exactly - nothing more than a crutch.. - rjd 13:42:50 01/1/05 (1)
- Re: Exactly - nothing more than a crutch.. - eso 13:50:10 01/1/05 (0)
- Re: Exactly - nothing more than a crutch.. - eso 13:22:50 01/1/05 (0)
- One leg -or- a crutch and one leg? - tomservo 10:54:13 01/1/05 (5)
- Re: One leg -or- a crutch and one leg? - Jmmlc 00:37:02 01/4/05 (3)
- Re: One leg -or- a crutch and one leg? - Paul Eizik 19:18:45 01/4/05 (2)
- Re: One leg -or- a crutch and one leg? - tomservo 17:54:04 01/7/05 (1)
- Re: One leg -or- a crutch and one leg? - Paul Eizik 18:52:47 01/8/05 (0)
- Thanks Tom - eso 13:41:38 01/1/05 (0)
- Re: Revisiting Horn Soundstaging & Imaging - GM 17:25:23 12/31/04 (0)