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I'm able to buy one of these three amps secondhand. Which is "best" ... what's their sonic signature? Alas, I don't remember the Audio Research range very well, I know the "Classic" amps were supposed to evoke a classic sound, but that's about it.Thanks
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My second tube amp was the ARC D-70MkII, which I belive is the tiny cousin to the D250. Back in my college days (and the heyday of the Classic 60) I used to work for an ARC Dealer, so I have quite a bit of experience with the Classic 60. A year after I graduated and left for the bright lights of the city, I bought a V70 which I still own and use today. I have also owned or own Krell and Spectral SS amps.While the D-70 was a revalation when compared with my fist amp (Dynaco Stereo 70), it couldn't hold a candle to the Classic 60, which I feel is one of the biggest bargains in used audio today.
During my stint with the ARC dealer in college, I used a Krell KST-100 and then a KSA-100s in my personal system because I was an idiot going through an expensive solid state phase that lasted until I last year. During that phase, something told me to try the ARC again so I bought the V70. It was far superior to my old D-70 and to the newer Krells. Not even really in the same class of performance. It managed to do everything right EXCEPT I missed the solid state bass slam. So I bought very expensive Spectrals, which I convinced myself were the equal of the V70 in every way but also gave me the bass slam I was looking for.
After buying the Spectrals, I lent my V70 to my Dad. I got it back last year and discovered that I had been lying to myself all along. The V70 is a fantastic all rounder and even has enough bass slam to be credible. I discovered that I just hadn't had the right pre-amp or speakers at the time.
As for the differences between the V70 and Classic 60, ARC says that they are the same amp with the exception of the power-up circuitry and the fact the the V70 is all balanced (and has no single-ended inputs). Many claim that the V70 sounds different in a bad way (more analytical is usually the word) but I belive that most of that "bad" difference can be boiled down to the fact that the V70 shipped with Sovtek 6550s instead of decent KT88s, KT90s, KT91s or (even decent 6550s for that matter). Also many people used the cheapie balanced to SE connectors instead of buying the expensive ARC BL-1, 2, or 3 converters and therefore compromised the sound quality. I think the sales and reputation of the amp suffered because of a poor choice of OEM tube and ARC's failure to put single ended inputs on the damn thing (REALLY STOOPID MOVE).
If you run this amp with a balanced preamp and slap some good power tubes in it, it kills at under $2000, and is more reliable than the Classic 60 (which wasn't a disaster but also wasn't trouble free). Keep in mind that the replacement tubes must be very precisely matched but I think ARC charges WAY too much for tubes so you may want to shop around.
The Classic 60 is an excellent amp and a steal for what they are going for used. I've heard this amp with several speakers and they have never sounded less than very musical.
Peter,I think your list is of three quite different amplifiers. The D250 from the mid '80's is from ARC's monster period- later the M300 monoblocks (with FET front end) took over that department. I believe a D250 weighs over 160 pounds and has cooling fans- an all out and complex design. The sound is marvelous- detailed, smooth, effortless in the way the all-tube pentode mode ARC products were, with the additional authority of 250 W.
The output tubes are horizontally mounted and there are many tubes:
D250> (6) 6922, (4)7119/7044, (8) MatchedPairs 6550, (4) 6550, (2) 12AT7
D250MKII, 250MKIIS> (4) 6922, (4) 7119/7044, (2) 6FQ7, (8) MPairs6550, (4) 6550, (2) 12AT7
If you buy a full set of tubes from ARC, the price is over $1,800.
Without direct experience of the two, I would restate the standard about ARC- always buy the latest version possible- MKIIs always! There was a D250 servo that received rave reviews when new- probably Stereophile Class A then- for what that's worth.
Others have talked about the D70 from the same period and I use it's relative- D115- both excellent alternatives. Perhaps the finest sounding was the enigmatic M100. These were 100W monoblocks related to the D70/115 but were expensive and had reliability problems- but when they are going- absolutely fantastic.As you are considering the CL60 and V70, I assume that these would suit your power needs. I have limited experience (heard only the CL30 and V140 very often), but these are both very pleasant- the "classic" aspect were that they run in triode mode. The CL30 at least is a sweety. The CL60 and V70 are hybrids with the same tube complement :
CL60 (4) MPairs 6550 (4) 6FQ7
V70 (4) MPairs 6550, (4) 6FQ7To compare: the D70 gets the same power-70W-from 2 pairs of 6550s.
I would think that the CL or V are solid, neutral and have great detail and soundstage, but are not the end statement in liquidity, air, or sweetness, nor would they respond as dramatically to tube changes as the all-tube units. The D250 is on the edge of over-kill and over-complexity. My prejudice: the CL60 or consider a D70.
Cheers,
Bambi B
I have owned both M100 monoblocks and D115s (in fact I still have a D115). Both, along with the D79, are among the best ARC ever made. I agree the M100s were better. And finicky. All 3 produce some of the sweetest, layered and with a really good source palpable images I have heard. They need retubing every couple of years in my experience.Never owned a 250 but heard them and they gave a much different sound. More powerful, but drier. Plus the cost much more to retube.
Don't know how much power you need but frankly would doubt you really need a 250.
If you study the schematics you will see that many of the higher powered amps a very complex in power supply with lots of output tubes. Thought many times abt trying the D115ii or the D70ii. The latter is apparently one of their better efforts and have been told reliability is good. All depends on how much power you need. If you can stay away from the 4 6550s per channel and use just two as in the D70 you would prob have less relab problems. Also be aware of the fact that their newer amps are far less complex and that tells one something. Vintage sound is best forgotten. Max
Which one is 'best' would depend on several factors. The D250 would be appropriate if you have inefficient speakers in a large room. The D250 came in several versions, mkII, mkII servo. The D250 is mid-to-late 80's. Monster of an amp, takes lots of expensive tubes, and had its share of reliability problems. Would only be a good choice if you have deep pockets and don't mind your amp being down alot.The Classic 60/V70 are similiar amps. The Classic series followed the D70/D115/D250 series as I recall and the V series followed the Classic series. Both the CL60 and V70 are triode connected power tubes versus Ultra-linear operation in the D250. I guess you would call the triode connection more of a 'classic' sound. Both the CL60/V70 are hybrid circuits using FETs for front end, and tubes for drive and output. They will be less costly to run in the long term versus on all out tube design like the D250. I preferred the all tube designs more than the hybrids, but the CL60/V70 are nice amps. As I recall the CL60 has balanced/unbalanced inputs while the V70 is balanced only. Or maybe it is the other way around. Been awhile since I had these amps so I can't remember exactly. The D250 is unbalanced.
If you have fairly efficient speakers in a reasonable size room the CL60 is probably your best bet. I prefered it slightly over the V70. The V series was not a great success for ARC, but the Classic series was quite well received. I still like the last of the D series amps the best, but that is really a matter of personal taste, etc.
Good luck.
Thanks a bunchI'm thinking an all-valve amp is probably the best way to go, too. And surely you can never have enough power, regardless of room size? I can always switch the heating off and use the D250 as my main source of heat ;-)
The thing is the D250 is more than twice the cost of the C60 - is it worth the difference?
Now: which preamp to suit these amps? I'm thinking : Sp14, Sp15, that sort of thing. From a stupidly personal perspective I like the SP14 becuase it has a lot of knobs to twiddle, and I'm a persistent knob twiddler. Minimalist "fit and forget" preamps annoy me because, whilst they might sound good, I can't play with them!
But, again, it depends what I can get 2ndhand and I've seen a few Sp14's and one SP15 for sale here in the UK at prices that I can just about afford. Any others suit, say, the C60 or D250?
Thanks again
I would agree that you can probably not have too much power. But when it comes to valves I guess it depends on what you can afford. My budget just could not handle a D250. I retubed my D70's(pair) this year and nearly fainted after the retube bill. Oh well, if you play you will pay!I use the SP14; love it. One of the things I like most is the flexibility of unit; i.e. knobs. One nice feature is you can flip a switch to bypass all the knobs/switches in the circuit. I owned a Levinson ML-6 many years ago and it was just too minimalist to be practical. I had to have an external switch box made to really make it practical in my system.
What speakers do you plan on using? To me the D250 is just a scary beast; so many tubes and the horizontal mounting causes a lot of problems. I know that ARC is horizontal mounting tubes again, but I am always feaful of that approach.
Best of luck with the amp/preamp.
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